The Australian reports the first Newspoll for the year has Labor’s two-party lead unchanged at 55-45, from primary votes of Labor 38% (down one), Coalition 34% (down one), Greens 11% (steady) and One Nation 6% (steady). Anthony Albanese is down five on approval to 57% and up four on disapproval to 33%, while Peter Dutton is steady at 36% and up one to 46%. Albanese’s lead as preferred prime minister narrows from 59-24 to 56-26.
There were further questions on the Indigenous voice to parliament, which found 56% in support (28% strongly and 28% partly) and 37% opposed (23% strongly and 14% partly). Extensive further detail on why respondents felt the way the did. The most favoured among listed of reasons for those opposed was that “it won’t help the issues facing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians”. The poll was conducted Wednesday to Saturday from a sample of 1512.
“Player One says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 4:14 pm
Does it guarantee success? No more than placing one puzzle piece correctly will guarantee correct placement of the others. Does that mean you should refuse to put it in place?
The Voice is not an end in itself, it is one piece of a larger puzzle. And without all the pieces in play, it does little.”
To solve a puzzle you start with some pieces, then you add others, and others until you end up solving it. The Voice is an important piece that can and must be added at the coming referendum. Then we will see when the others can be added and so on. Not adding the Voice only because, alone, it doesn’t solve the puzzle, doesn’t make any sense. Because if somebody offers Treaty first before the Voice, we can use the same argument: Treaty alone doesn’t solve the puzzle, etc…
Stop finding excuses and come fully on board with the YES campaign. After we win, you can even congratulate yourself, and start your next campaign.
It’s simple, it’s not complicated….
A_E
This is simply the consequence of decisions made to gaslight the Tiger as an operational platform over the previous 5 years by the former regime. That being said, we would still be far better off – bangs for bucks – in reinvesting the the Tiger for 5 years and fast tracking drone replacements than investing a single dollar into Apaches.
——————————————-
Absolutely, and in any event it’ll take at least five years to decommission the Tigers.
A terribly weak argument.
Treaty is progressing well in Victoria.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct/20/historic-deal-struck-to-see-victorian-treaty-negotiations-with-first-nations-groups-begin-next-year
Bob Hawke called for a treaty in his final press conference as PM.
Yet here we are 30 yrs later.
The cannon fodder* are coming, the cannon fodder are coming!
“Moscow moves troops into eastern Ukraine ahead of new offensive, Luhansk governor says”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/feb/07/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-moscow-moves-troops-into-eastern-ukraine-ahead-of-new-offensive-luhansk-governor-says
* used to be russians but they’re now shit 😡
Torchbearer @ Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:27 pm:
“Q: Why not Kyiv?
Will probably happen, but will not be announced.”
================
😉
It may be considered. But visiting a NATO neighbour makes a lot of sense. I would assume he will meet with Ukrainians there.
So there was a lot of conflating the Voice and the Truth telling commission, and well it turns out conflating them isn’t based in the text, and the Commission might just have easily informed the voice as the voice inform the commission.
They might even have been done in paralell:
“… It asks Australians to walk together to build a better future by establishing a First Nations Voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution, and the establishment of a Makarrata Commission for the purpose of treaty making and truth-telling.”
On the website the voice and the commission are side by side graphically.
This is said about the voice and it seems to be much much more than the actual proposed voice:
“We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.”
The actual proposed voice isn’t even in the same solar system as that sentence asks for.
I will concede that in one place it does sequence the commission:
“Makarrata is the culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better future for our children based on justice and self-determination.”
But if the self determination is being taken out of the voice you can’t really ever get there.
I haven’t read / memorised the whole website, but it seems many of the constant posters here haven’t even visited.
Simon Henny Penny Katich @ Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:27 pm:
“Why not Kyiv?
Why not let everybody know exactly where in Kyiv and when and how he plans to travel there and back?”
===================
Indeed! 😉
“Andrew_Earlwood says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 4:25 pm
P1 and Integrity being deliberately obtuse. Another day on bludger. Same as yesterday.
The Voice is not just a nice feel good gesture. It is not a pea and thimble trick. It is what the vast majority of FN leaders and elders THINK is necessary to break the impasse on other issues.”…
Pooh1 and other Liberal party stormtroopers understand perfectly well, Andrew. It’s just that they have a role to play, and must follow a script.
Andrew_Earlwood @ #1336 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 5:10 pm
Makarrata is the answer. Makarrata is not two parties talking where each speaks with a single voice. That’s entirely our model of diplomacy. Makarrata involves getting all affected parties together, sitting down and speaking and acknowledging the truth, and then agreeing to move past previous disputes.
I can see that Voice is a useful tool for FN people to be heard by a Constitutional government that is not set up to deal well with multiple mixed and sometimes even contradictory voices. But Voice is not required for Makarrata, and it could even make Makarrata more difficult if (as it will) it deliberately excludes some FN viewpoints because it needs to deliver a single simplified message in order to be heard at all.
Trying to remember the last time a US president visited a war zone that US troops were not active in….
Hmmmm. Nah. Not likely to happen.
“WeWantPaul says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:30 pm
So there was a lot of conflating the Voice and the Truth telling commission, and well it turns out conflating them isn’t based in the text, and the Commission might just have easily informed the voice as the voice inform the commission.
They might even have been done in paralell”
No serious person is conflating anything, nobody is seriously asking to run anything in parallel, but a little and insignificant bunch of fringe dwellers. There is only one thing coming, that’s the Voice Referendum. I expect Parliament to pass the legislation to run the Referendum and then I expect the majority of Australians to vote YES!…. After that, let’s put an effort into making the Voice work, and then see what other steps are needed and how the Uluru Statement from the Heart can be implemented over time.
“Player One says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:31 pm”
It is the Aboriginal People of Australia who asked for Voice First. Respect their decision, don’t be obtuse and disrespectful.
“Lars Von Trier says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:29 pm
Bob Hawke called for a treaty in his final press conference as PM.
Yet here we are 30 yrs later.”
Were the majority of Australian people ready for a treaty 30 years ago? Are they ready in 2023?
But they seem to be ready for a Voice…. Let’s go for it!
The 2023 ANU climate update if anyone is interested
https://youtube.com/watch?v=iKhn0KeOVNM&feature=shares
The Silver Bodgie @Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 3:56 pm
“Latest Morgan.
ALP two-party preferred support increases; ALP 58.5% L-NP 41.5% after PM Albanese provides $250 million funding for Alice Springs.”
Thank you! Hard to find this post when away from pollbludger for longer than 15 minutes 🙂
Cronus @ #1344 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 5:23 pm
Thanks for the support, Cronus. Those with mortgages tend to think they are the centre of the economic universe. 😉
Were Biden to visit Kyiv or Lviv would the Russians try to kill him?
I doubt it – still they would hate the propaganda value of it but presumably could spin it – the master (USA) coming to give orders to the lackey (Ukraine)
DisplayName, 3:02pm
I immediately thought that it might be a place that Lidia Thorpe would want to occupy when her term as Senator ends, and that led to other thoughts.
“Lars Von Trier says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:43 pm
… the master (USA) coming to give orders to the lackey (Ukraine)”
WTF, Lars?… So far it’s clear that’s the “master” Ukraine that’s giving “orders” to the USA and NATO to send more money, military equipment and support for the war effort! But in fact, Zelenskyy doesn’t need to send any “order” at all, the Allies know very well that Nazi-Putin must not, cannot win this war.
Surely even you can understand?
Rex
Treaty is progressing well because the Victorian government set up a body to run it – in effect, a Voice.
They did this precisely because of the delay in a Voice being implemented.
It was the second best option, not the preferred one.
New management looking a little like teh previous management with this.
I note Poorlene voted with Labor. No surprise on this issue but I seem to remember some Bludgers yesterday chucking crap at Thorpe , suggesting she’ll do awful things like………… vote with Poorlene on some issues.
.
Paul Karp@Paul_Karp
Labor’s designation of Nauru as a regional processing country passes the Senate 39 (Labor, Coalition, One Nation, UAP, Lambie) votes to 12 (Greens, Thorpe). #auspol
Thorpe voting with Greens will shock the foundations of PB.
Integrity:
“ A terribly weak argument.
Treaty is progressing well in Victoria.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/oct/20/historic-deal-struck-to-see-victorian-treaty-negotiations-with-first-nations-groups-begin-next-year”
_________
Did you even read that article before you cut and pasted it?
We see you. Charlatan.
from that article:
“ Under the framework, traditional owner groups with competing stakes over land would be required to form a single delegation before entering into negotiations with the state government.”
So what is the mechanism to resolve impasses if/when groups with competing stakes over land fail to form a single delegation?
_____
And:
“ After the [First Nations People’s Assembly] holds new elections next year, it will begin negotiating a statewide treaty with the state government that could include improving political representation for First Nations Victorians via a permanent Indigenous decision-making body or reserved seats for Indigenous representatives in the state’s parliament – similar to what exists in New Zealand’s parliament.”
Ummm. Do you need me to join the dots. Really?
“poroti says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:49 pm”
poroti, the problem with Thorpe is that she was confusing the position of the Greens. Now that she is gone, there is no confusion. That can only be good.
Chalmers would need to be a truly pathetic chump to reappoint Lowe after such a disastrous term as governor. Giving Lowe the arse would be a slam-dunk no-brainer and will go down well with the general public. Frankly if Lowe had any sense of accountability he would be resigning of his own accord (his intellectually superior deputy Guy Debelle obviously saw the writing on the wall). Yes he makes good salary as governor but I’m sure he would be making more sitting on corporate boards.
Simon Henny Penny Katich @ Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:32 pm:
“Trying to remember the last time a US president visited a war zone that US troops were not active in….
Hmmmm. Nah. Not likely to happen.”
==============
SHPK, good point. Anyway, I’ve got a lot of time for Poland. The priest in our local parish is originally from Poland. Also, my wife’s family originated from the far western part of Ukraine – ie, the historically Polish part – and indeed their particular way of speaking Ukrainian is heavily influenced by Polish. And most importantly, Poland is proving to be Ukraine’s most sincere and reliable ally in this present conflict. So, if Presidents Biden and Zelenskyy meet up in Poland, there’ll be no quibble from me.
Andrew_Earlwood @ #1369 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 5:52 pm
Do your homework next time before peddling your negativity.
WeWantPaul @ #1358 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 5:30 pm
An excellent post. However, like many you interpret the term “culmination” to mean Makarrata must come after Voice. But that’s not what it means (or at least not necessarily what it means). The term Makarrata has no exact parallel in English – it refers to both the outcome and the process used to get there. The former is the culmination of the latter. The establishment of the Makarrata Commission begins the process at a national level (it has already begun at state level), and the national Voice can happen in parallel (again, this is already happening at state level). I don’t think it was intended that either one depend on the other.
This is a very brief explanation of the term Makarrata:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-10/makarrata-explainer-yolngu-word-more-than-synonym-for-treaty/8790452
Also, you are correct about self-determination being critical:
https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/culture/article/2019/07/04/makarrata-aboriginal-healing-process-we-should-all-know-about
Obviously, we expect we will be invited to participate in this process. But how and when and where is up to the Makarrata Commission to determine. This is one of its functions.
I think one (but only one) function of the Voice (capital V) may be the end of the Makarrata process, if it is decided that the outcome should involve a Treaty. It may not, but if it does then the Voice might be the appropriate instrument to use for that.
P1 channeling some kum-ba-yah juju:
“ Makarrata is the answer. Makarrata is not two parties talking where each speaks with a single voice. That’s entirely our model of diplomacy. Makarrata involves getting all affected parties together, sitting down and speaking and acknowledging the truth, and then agreeing to move past previous disputes.
I can see that Voice is a useful tool for FN people to be heard by a Constitutional government that is not set up to deal well with multiple mixed and sometimes even contradictory voices. But Voice is not required for Makarrata, and it could even make Makarrata more difficult if (as it will) it deliberately excludes some FN viewpoints because it needs to deliver a single simplified message in order to be heard at all.”
____
And when there is no agreement, because the likes of a Jarrett or a Thorpe turn up? Or, because for other reasons no universal consensus between all participants is reached? What then P1? What then?
Edited to throw this back at you. From The Uluṟu statement:
“ It asks Australians to walk together to build a better future by establishing a First Nations Voice to Parliament enshrined in the Constitution, and the establishment of a Makarrata Commission for the purpose of treaty making and truth-telling.”
It is simply no good to say ‘all FN voices will be heard’ IF one of the purposes behind the voice and Makarrata is treaty making: there is no way of avoiding this – there must be a mechanism to determine disputes BETWEEN FN people before a treaty between those FN people and the Government can conclude. This is where your idealised notion of Makarrata falls down. It is a big part of the reason why many of the initiatives concerning FN people has fallen down. Besides which it is exactly NOT what the authors of the Statement actually meant. But of course, Bwana knows best.
“It is the Aboriginal People of Australia who asked for Voice First. Respect their decision, don’t be obtuse and disrespectful.”
So there are two areas of construction.
First there is the task of interpreting the text. You are here asserting a meaning in the text, where in the text is voice first.
You should also be aware that every single one of the minds creating the text and those reading the text potentially interpret the text differently.
Secondly there is an opinion on the political process to most honestly and faithfully implement the text, including political decisions on ‘possibility’ and achievability.
The two processes aren’t the same.
You’d have some original text reference to support you assertion yeah? You wouldn’t be making it up?
RP @ #1366 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 5:41 pm
Yes, very interested. Thanks.
Somebody told her that Elvis is still alive?
“Thorpe really wants to meet the king” (Oz headline)
Lars Von Trier @ Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 5:43 pm:
“Were Biden to visit Kyiv or Lviv would the Russians try to kill him?
I doubt it – still they would hate the propaganda value of it but presumably could spin it – the master (USA) coming to give orders to the lackey (Ukraine)”
===============
Odds-on that is how the Kremlin will try to spin it. If they are capable of spinning NATO supplies of heavy weapons to Ukraine as simultaneously ineffective in thwarting Russian advances and an outrageous escalation threatening Russia’s existence as a state, their capacity for fully believing mutually exclusive propositions is basically endless. In that light, I’m sure this piece of spinning should be a doddle for them. And so predictable it will be greeted with a yawn basically everywhere, even at home.
David Rowe
As I suggested, unions are starting to get wind of what a new US/UK design AUKUS SSN means for local shipbuilding jobs, or lack thereof, for up to the next ten years.
https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/we-need-a-plan-b-unions-have-deep-concerns-about-aukus-pact-20230206-p5ciaf.html
Also, while Marles may say he wants local industry to develop capability, that simply won’t happen unless there is an announced plan with dates and a budget. Who is going to recruit and train people for work that doesn’t exist till 2030?
citizen: “Somebody told her that Elvis is still alive?”
I was once told by someone who claimed to know about these things that, as of the mid-1990s, Elvis was still alive and living as a father of three in Tuggeranong ACT.
And with that, good night to you all.
Completely different topic. Is anyone familiar with Lithium Titanate (LTO) batteries?
http://alphacleanenergy.com/images/Products/Zenaji_Aeon_Brochure_V1.3.pdf
They’re too heavy for EVs but might be good for commercial or even home use. The first Solar power company I asked poo-pooed them. (Too new. No-one uses them. No built-up trust. We don’t know the company. CTO’s resume sucks.)
Andrew_Earlwood @ #1381 Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 – 6:02 pm
Jeez. Do I have to repeat myself?
Makarrata is the answer. Not your answer, of course. Their answer.
Your answer would be to shout, bully, abuse and demand that all opposing voices must be silenced, until everyone else gets heartily sick of listening to you and concedes just to shut you up.
Although they might spear you in the leg first.
Lars, Bob Hawke at his last presser as PM was asked ‘any regrets..’ or wtte
He did say he wished he had done more for the Aboriginal cause – but unbeknownst to RJLH – he had put in place the people and the commitment which led to the Mabo legislation.
Plenty else that could go wrong. A clear cut, deliberate, state sanctioned assassination may not be the worst of them!
He is playing tomorrow @ 1.30pm and needs 30 odd for the all time record.
“Makarrata is the answer. Not your answer, of course. Their answer.”
Surely it has to be OUR mutual answer?
Obviously that would inform the constitutional structure and power of the voice of self determination, if you did it the other way around.
“He did say he wished he had done more for the Aboriginal cause – but unbeknownst to RJLH – he had put in place the people and the commitment which led to the Mabo legislation.”
Paul might feel that overplays Bob’s role a bit?
Russians KIA Feb 7: 1,030
Total Russians KIA: 133,190
Daily average Russians KIA: 381.6
Source: General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/02/7/7388227/
A comment on Jim Chalmers and the review of the RBA. Could be what he is, or should be thinking…
The RBA has 2 objectives
1. Keep inflation within the 2-3% band
2. Maintain full employment
What’s missing is the third ‘well being’ objective. Which could be another measure on top of GDP, CPI, Wage/Price Index, Unemployment Rate, Overnight Cash Rate etc….
So what if a measure which included concepts such as health and welfare metrics, mental health improvement, social inclusion, educational metrics, environmental degradation reduction, emissions reduction was added to the objectives for the RBA to aspire to?
A third pillar could be what the response to the review underway mandates.
Will the current Governor survive? Maybe.
The current RBA Board, full of Coalition toadies may not be so fortunate.
Simon Henny Penny Katich at 2.31 pm
You say “Many will ask the question – who won the cold war, Communism or Capitalism? I think that is misleading.”
Correct. The Cold War was a very complex phenomenon, much more than a simple binary opposition in propaganda terms.
In a fundamental sense nobody won the Cold War, because of the awful opportunity costs for humanity that it involved, especially the immense dangers of nuclear weapons. For this view see this review of an important book by Lebow and Stein, We All Lost the Cold War (Princeton UP 1994):
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3133&context=nwc-review
If there had been no Cold War, or if it had not lasted for two generations, the enormous challenge of global warming may not have become as huge and daunting as it now is.
On a different level of historical analysis, the question “Who won the Cold War?” is complicated, if answered diachronically over the whole period of the Cold War (1947-89), instead of just for November 1989.
Did the Stalinist leaders in Moscow lose the Cold War when they invaded Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968? Clearly not. They benefited from the prolonged duration of the Cold War, as did the US, because the Cold War helped the superpowers to discipline their allies.
The European Union also benefited in a narrow sense from the Cold War, because that provided a context of strong US support in which it was able to develop for decades principally as a common market. It was after the EU moved to deepen its integration, by creating a common currency, and substantially expanding its membership, that its problems grew larger.
WWP – RJLH confronted a wasteland, and gave Labor 13 years in power for reconstruction.
citizen says:
Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 6:05 pm
Somebody told her that Elvis is still alive?
“Thorpe really wants to meet the king” (Oz headline)
中华人民共和国
Ahem. Johnny O’Keefe
“ Jeez. Do I have to repeat myself?
Makarrata is the answer. Not your answer, of course. Their answer.
Your answer would be to shout, bully, abuse and demand that all opposing voices must be silenced, until everyone else gets heartily sick of listening to you and concedes just to shut you up.
Although they might spear you in the leg first.”
My point is that you clearly don’t understand their point.