I note that the front page of the Roy Morgan website has some detail on the federal voting intention numbers in which its weekly update video typically provides on the two-party preferred, though I’m not sure if this is new or unusual. The latest result has Labor leading 57-43, in from 59-41 last week; the primary votes are Labor 37.5%, Coalition 33.5%, Greens 11.5% and others 17.5%; and the field work dates were January 23 to 29. However, no detail on sample size or survey method is provided.
Other than that, an Ipsos poll of 300 Indigenous Australians released by pro-Indigenous voice group Uluru Dialogue last week found 80% support for the proposal, including 57% who were very sure and 21% who were fairly sure, with only 10% opposed.
“So why make the Makarrata Commission wait on the outcome, especially since it does not actually depend on the Voice to proceed? Wouldn’t that take a lot of the wind from the Greens sails?”
I think it is pretty clear, even if you strip away Labor partisanship given the throughly and consistent racist and selfish – greedy characteristics of Australian voters, particularly those very well off voters whose voices are magnfied by the Murdoch led MSM, if the voice poses any threat to either their racism or their perceived back pocket (through the ongoing insanely wrong household budget anology to the national budget) then the voice will fail.
So it makes sense to try and take the first step, even if it means the voice you create means less than the current ironically named closing the gap reports where we dutifully notice the gap isn’t closing frown deeply for a moment before returning to our favorite sports of torturing and killing refugees, killing First Nations people in jail and ruthlessly defending franking credits, negative gearing and the worst exploits of superannuation.
It is a very legitimate concern.
The very last thing you’d want is a very genuine conversation say about the massacre in Pinjarra to help smooth the way for an arsehole aristocrat from the UK’s colonial real estate scam.
But equally, and the stats suggest only 20%, but equally genuinely and for much the same reason you could view the voice as largely symbolic, and actually worry a yes to a weak unthreatning by design voice makes reconciliation or truth telling harder and treaty less likely not more likely.
Now on a largely symbolic voice (that definitely isn’t going to be listened to by the one of the two parties very good at winning govt) it is fair to say what is wanted by FN people should definitely be advanced. It isn’t about us arsehole decendents of the real estate scammers who where keen to rock up and massacre First Nation peoples.
But truth telling and treaty are very much about both sides. We all have to come to those tables or they are as meaningless as closing the gap reports always noting opening gaps, or endless royal commissions into deaths in custody whose recommendations are ignored.
Maybe one of the great supporters of a “Makarrata Commission” can tell me what it will actually do anyway. If I don’t know your average bogan has no hope.
Any answer that begins and ends with Truth automatically loses.
This is not apartheid South Africa where the horrific events were recent and unadmitted and needed to be brought into the light.
What Truth is there that is not already known and needs a special path to come out?
Like the Voice I am in favour of it purely because the Uluru meeting asked for it and I think the most important thing here is to listen to Indigenous people and deliver what they want, not what a random white guy thinks is best. But it doesn’t mean I particularly get the point.
At least with the Voice, while I think it is fairly token I can appreciate the symbolism of a formal method for Indigenous voices to be heard even if the extent it will be actually listened to will depend on the government of the day.
“Conclusion: the loudmouths supporting “Voice NO” whilst shouting about “Treaty Now”, in fact they should be honest and say what they are really on about, which is “Treaty NO”.”
Yup, they are all about the status quo and maintaining it. doGs forbid any real progress towards anything different from protest because who would want to interview them or give hits to their Facebook and TikToc then ??? There are revenue streams at stake here!! 🙁
Snappy Tommy says Sun 5th @9.12am
The Coalition now have 57 MHRs (didn’t someone resign party membership a little while ago?) out of 151 seats. 21 of those MHRs are from the 30 Qld seats (70% of said seats), meaning 36 of 121 non-Qld MHRs are Coalition – a tick under 30%.
…………………………………………………………………………………
Who cares where federal Labor won their seats, as long as they won.
While QLDers may have always been a bit ‘slow’ to know what is really happening in federal politics, (don’t forget the abortive ‘Joh for PM’ campaign), when it comes to Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk (PAP) and the state Labor Party the voters have returned them for three consecutive terms after kicking out that moron Campbell Newman (after only one term) who sacked 14,000 public servants before he had a chance to sack another 10,000.
I say moron because because Newman boasted that he was going to sack 25,000 public servants. If you were one of the 200,000 QLD public servants at the time, or one of their spouses or family members, would you have voted for the LNP and put yourself or your breadwinner on the unemployment scrap heap.
To think that Labor won back office in 2015, from only 7 members in 2012 is a political comeback story unmatched in Australian political history’.
With a recent QLD poll (one only) at 50/50 at present but still predicting a Labor win, make no mistake PAP is there for the long haul not like her nemesis Berejiklian (Ms Personality Plus) who resigned in shame after her ICAC call up. Bring on the ICAC findings.
Serves her right for attacking Qlds closed borders during the worst pandemic in 100 years.
Premier Palaszczuk is and always will be a Labor hero.
WWP
‘But equally, and the stats suggest only 20%..’
Not sure what you’re talking about here, but if you mean FN opposition to the Voice, it’s 10%.
10% are undecided – and undecideds usually split both ways.
You know the most telling trait of trolls? They rarely use anecdotes of their lives.
Alpo the reason the voice comes first is so the govt will have a body for the treaty and the truth telling to be negotiated with. You’ve been told this.
If you set the truth telling up now how is it to be constructed? by whom? who will be on it? what will it look at?
The whole idea of the voice is that once in place the govt can seek advice as to how the rest of the Uluru Statement will function. It will legitimise the process because the voice will be enshrined in the constitution (see the people who came up with the Uluru Statement actually thought the process through – you should try it).
Of course under your proposal a bunch of whities could set it up and we’d be back where we’ve been for the last nearly 250 years.
I assume that some people are born obtuse while others perfect the art through a lifetime of trying hard to achieve obtuse.
The Statement from the Heart got the order right.
Establish a Voice.
The Voice represents national Indigenous opinion.
The Voice can feed into the ground work, the process, etc, etc, for Makarrata.
Makarrata essentially provides agreement on the shared history, truth telling, etc, etc, etc.
This provides the platform for negotiating a Treaty.
The Indigenous folk who sorted this out after years of work are not stupid. They are smart.
The order is so simple it beyond comprehension that some people can’t see it.
Until you see the people who can’t see it, that is.
“Why not set up a Makarrata commission now?
Are you afraid of the truth?”
P1……We all know you at least pretend to have language comprehension issues and i don’t its fair for you to think anyone should try and find small enough words to answer that question again. 🙁
“It’s very simple, even you can understand.”
Alpo, this is P1 you are talking about. That assertion is unlikely to age well.
https://youtu.be/TcNUXkESAP4
Some more Street scenes today in Kharkiv
Arky
Sadly, you, like most Australians have been living in ignorance of what was going on with regards massacres of indigenous people since Federation.
We deserve the truth. Of the massacres, the stolen children, the stolen wages of the stockmen.
The lead researcher, Prof Lyndall Ryan, said that she believed the updated map only listed about half of the massacres that took place on the Australian frontier, and that the real figure was closer to 500.
“Most Australians have been brought up with the view that the settlement of Australia was largely peaceful,” she said. “This map turns that on its head.”
Ryan said massacres in the early 20th century were even more deadly than those a century before, and many had either the clear involvement or tacit approval of police.
“They are more carefully planned,” she said. “More people are killed in each incident. And massacre has become a professional business.”
The most recent incidents included on the map are the Coniston massacres, which occurred between August and October, 1928 on and around Coniston Station in the NT. It is often referred to as the last known massacre of Indigenous Australians, although Ryan says that will prove incorrect.
The murdered were Warlpiri and Arrernte people. The first massacre was a punitive police expedition, a reprisal for the murder of dingo tracker Fred Brooks, who had abducted the wife of a Warlpiri man.
A police party killed more than 50 people over the course of a few weeks. A short time later, after Warlpiri allegedly attacked and wounded a man named Nugget Morton on the Lander River; another massacre was conducted by settlers. More than 60 Warlpiri and Arrernte died.
“I am surprised at the number of times that we find that the state is present in something, or condoning it, or turning a blind eye,” Ryan said. “I had not expected to find that. Although it is what Aboriginal people have been saying forever – I have had to learn to listen a little more closely.”
The map was first published in August 2017 and detailed events up to 1872. A third block of research, including WA and expanding the reference area from 1788 to 1960, will begin soon.
The response has been overwhelmingly positive, Ryan says. They have received more than 400 submissions, mostly from locals and historical societies who are keen to share their own records.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jul/27/evidence-of-250-massacres-of-indigenous-australians-mapped\
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/16/attempted-aboriginal-massacres-took-place-as-recently-as-1981-historian-says
In the 1967 Referendum, 90% of Australians voted Yes.
In 2023, I suspect the result will be similar – and only the ignorant racist sympathetics will vote No.
As for the Murdoch organs fomenting dissent, they have no sway anymore in modern Australia.
Arky @ #752 Sunday, February 5th, 2023 – 6:44 pm
The point is that we don’t really know. Check out the massacre map, and read about how long it took to get even that incomplete picture, and how much might yet remain to be uncovered and/or corroborated. And that’s just the bare facts of what happened and where it happened in the cases that were fairly well documented (mostly in the press of the time).
Then you get to the more difficult stuff to uncover, which is the stuff that was done in secret or was just not so well documented.
We would want to know who in government sanctioned these operations, and when, and whether it was justified, or even legal at the time (it certainly would not be either of these now, but was it back then? Was there provocation? Or is that just lies to cover murderous intent)
And some of this history is not that old. Some of the people responsible, or affected could still be around.
“Yup, they are all about the status quo and maintaining it.”
I think for the heart of the greens party this is true. There whole thing is about protest against, it is about stopping what they consider bad. The active core of the greens definitely, whether they know it or not, are defined by the things they want to stop not the things they want to do.
So I think amongst this tiny core, way less than 1% of the 10% of the vote the party gets, this is almost certainly fair.
Put in the partisan political overlay and it is even more true. The greens get votes from a small segment of labor voters. Not the suburbs, not your average blue collar union heart and soul of Labor, but an elite fringe of labor. And to do this they must oppose labor, nothing else would work.
But for much the 20% of FN and for anyone worried about treaty and reconciliation and truth telling there is room for genuine view and in my opinion we need truth telling dreadfully, the whole ‘we know it all already and it was a long time ago stick’ is just sky after dark rubbish.
“Like the Voice I am in favour of it purely because the Uluru meeting asked for it and I think the most important thing here is to listen to Indigenous people and deliver what they want, not what a random white guy thinks is best. But it doesn’t mean I particularly get the point.”
Fair comment Arky. And personally i think that the YES campaign will have to address exactly what you have said there.
My take is……… that for me the really attractive thing about Voice is that if the YES case wins the referendum, our Constitution DEMANDS that an FN Voice to Parliament be created and maintained.
If any Govt wants to abolish it, they have to run another referendum which they will be almost certain to lose and WILL pay a political price for even attempting that.
And maybe a Govt of a particular bent can choose to ignore it……but they CAN’T SILENCE it and there WILL be a political price to be paid for that if they try.
“WWP
‘But equally, and the stats suggest only 20%..’
Not sure what you’re talking about here, but if you mean FN opposition to the Voice, it’s 10%.
10% are undecided – and undecideds usually split both ways.”
You are right thanks for the correction, i think having 10% torn between the two illustrates my point much better than I ever could.
Boerwar @ #758 Sunday, February 5th, 2023 – 6:48 pm
Including, it should be noted, a significant number of First Nation people.
Not that they count, of course.
imacca @ #759 Sunday, February 5th, 2023 – 6:48 pm
More snark. Try contributing to the debate instead.
“And maybe a Govt of a particular bent can choose to ignore it……but they CAN’T SILENCE it and there WILL be a political price to be paid for that if they try.”
You can definitely silence it, quite easily and the past LNP govt excelled at nothing more than silencing dissenting voices.
Can you imagine if they’d had time to rig the Federal Court to the same extent they rigged the AAT, robodebt would have been legal.
“More snark. Try contributing to the debate instead.”
Oh Noessss!!! P1 has judged me harshly!! I am deemed undone and unworthy by that which speaketh for the Peanut Gallery!!!
I shall quit the field unto the bosom of a fine whisky and contemplate my utterly shameful intellectual state now that the terrible truth of it is on the public record !!!!
P1
‘The point is that we don’t really know. Check out the massacre map, and read about how long it took to get even that incomplete picture, and how much might yet remain to be uncovered and/or corroborated. And that’s just the bare facts of what happened and where it happened in the cases that were fairly well documented (mostly in the press of the time).
Then you get to the more difficult stuff to uncover, which is the stuff that was done in secret or was just not so well documented.’
Oh for fuck’s sake!!
This is what I’ve wasted most of my day saying to you!
Either you totally didn’t understand a word I wrote OR I convinced you and you were too conceited to admit it.
One from the recent vault – hasn’t aged well….
‘the other barney says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 6:48 pm
…
Of course under your proposal a bunch of whities could set it up and we’d be back where we’ve been for the last nearly 250 years.’
—————————
‘whities’ in the context of this discussion is, IMO, racist.
One of the patterns of decision making by the Albanese Government has gone almost completely unnoticed over the past eight months.
It is the degree to which program funding is being delivered through Indigenous organizations.
It could be that this is consistent with Labor ideology. It could be that Labor recognizes that the way to succeed in Indigenous Affairs is to get the decision-making as close to the community/Indigenous organization level as possible. It could be that there the Minister for Indigenous Affairs is passionately committed to this pattern. It could be that there are a swag of senior Labor ministers who are women. It could be that Labor has several Indigenous MPs and Senators with extensive experience on the ground. It could be that Albanese gets it.
My view? A bit of all these things.
Whatever. The pattern is, compared with the pattern under the Coalition, chalk and cheese.
zoomster @ #771 Sunday, February 5th, 2023 – 7:21 pm
So did we have a war, or not? And is it relevant, or not?
Hey peeps.
The rules according to P1.
1. P1 is always right. Not just a little bit right. 100% right. Each and every time.
2. P1 is an expert on everything.
3. P1 always knows more than all the other experts.
4. P1 always has to have the last word. This is an absolute must. Having the last word proves 1-3.
5. All discussions with P1 must end with P1 delivering condescending snarks to whomever.
Just saying but being better than Abbott / Turnbull / Morrison isn’t an achievement for all the great harm he started Howard achieved that for a decade.
If your bar is lower than Howard you are the frog in the hot water and it is too late to save you.
Just saying… a lot of people who are pontificating on Labor do not have a clue about what Labor is doing in relation to First Nations matters.
Not a clue.
After ten years of Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison cutting hundreds of millions from Indigenous spending, smashing Indigenous communities and organizations and individuals (robodebt, anyone?), here is what Labor has achieved in eight months.
1. Funding of $30 million to implement a national plan to tackle abuse and neglect of First Nations children. Measures include financial support for Indigenous communities and First Nationsl Community Controlled organisations to take the lead in family support services.
2. Prime Minister visits Alice Springs to meet with community leaders to tackle law and order crisis in Alice Springs. Alcohol restrictions to be introduced.
3. $120 million for 52 new health infrastructure projects at community controlled organisations.
4. $15 million funding under the Connected Beginnings Program to enable 3,500 Indigenous children to be better prepared for school.
5. Labor Government organizes first national Digital Inclusion Roundtable.
6. $44 million in ABA community grants to NT communities.
7. $99 million for First Nations Justice Package. Alice Springs identified as a priority site.
8. Grrote Eylandt Township lease transferred to the Anindilyakwa traditional owners.
9. Islander visual arts and crafts. Minister announces that this will feed into the National Cultural Policy.
10. Funding of $334 million for early years and education activities for 100,000 Indigenous children.
11. Strong public Albanese Government support for Far North Queensland native title settlement.
12. $80 million to establish an Aboriginal art gallery in Alice Springs
13. $100 million for housing and essential services in the Northern Territory.
14. $8 million to rebuild Mutitjulu Health Clinic.
15. Bill introduced to give Wreck Bay Community more say over its affairs.
16. Steps to expedite Ranger Uranium Mine rehabilitation.
17. Funding to support local communities and organisations to celebrate NAIDOC Week.
18. As part of $1.7 billion funding, the Albanese Government commits to the development of a standalone National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Plan to support First Nations women against domestic violence.
19. $50 million budgeted for the Voice referendum
20. Initial $6 million Budgeted for the Makarrata.
21. Promised to implement the Statement from the Heart during the election.
Still waiting, Z. Easy questions!
My computer just told me it was to be Frank C’s birthday tomorrow, but I think I read here that he had passed.
I assume my reminder is down to facebook rather than the WA Branch of the ALP or Frank’s ghost.
I just want to get off the train and back to my home computer with C+ so that I never have to have my intelligence insulted with Player One’s needy attention-seeking posts any more!
Their posts are pointless because their fallacies have been corrected multiple times and still they persist with them! They have convinced no one to change their minds about the Voice because they don’t know what they are talking about.
Zoomster, I don’t know why you waste your days with this miscreant either!?!
Boerwar @ #775 Sunday, February 5th, 2023 – 7:25 pm
Hey peeps, As I have stated many times, it is absolutely pointless to have any form of dialogue with P1. P1 is stupid, as she shows on a continuous basis. P1 is ignorant, as she shows on a continuous basis. P1 is boring and repetitive and banal. P1 is an absolutely classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, who has no worthwhile knowledge about anything at all, except the routine maintenance of a small regional tourist trap, and book-keeping for same. She has no worthwhile knowledge even of the plants and wildlife around her cleared patch of bush.
Stop it, please. Just load AR’s excellent PB Comments Plug-in, and block her, for the sake your own and everybody else’s sanity and well being. Just let her continue to fart into the wind for her own amusement.
Cheers.
“2. Prime Minister visits Alice Springs to meet with community leaders to tackle law and order crisis in Alice Springs. Alcohol restrictions to be introduced.”
This is in the good column? If only we could take away their children and teach them proper ways as well. Oh wait we did tbat before. Although we banned then from pubs before too. Oh and the streets of Perth unless they had a special pass.
Boerwar says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 7:25 pm
Hey peeps.
The rules according to P1.
1. P1 is always right. Not just a little bit right. 100% right. Each and every time.
2. P1 is an expert on everything.
3. P1 always knows more than all the other experts.
4. P1 always has to have the last word. This is an absolute must. Having the last word proves 1-3.
5. All discussions with P1 must end with P1 delivering condescending snarks to whomever.
———————————–
LOL but I had the last word twice in the last month and never been snarked at.
I really do hope that we get a Newspoll tonight!
My last interaction with Frank Calabrese was in August last year – as far as I can tell, he has been off social media since then
Yep WeWantPaul, let them go back to having virtual unlimited access to alcohol. That should sort out the problems they have.
Fool.
Have you even bothered to listen to the Indigenous Australians of The Alice at all?
“Stop it, please. Just load AR’s excellent PB Comments Plug-in, and block her, for the sake your own and everybody else’s sanity and well being. Just let her continue to fart into the wind for her own amusement.”
This place is often bad but that is just disgusting, I’m going to take a break. Please block me as well yabba, just in case I pop back. Ta.
P1
As I’ve said, I think the answer is irrelevant.
Your definition was that it was because most of the attacks happened under the auspices of the government.
We both agree now that that isn’t true, so – using your definition – there was no war.
‘WeWantPaul says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 7:45 pm
“2. Prime Minister visits Alice Springs to meet with community leaders to tackle law and order crisis in Alice Springs. Alcohol restrictions to be introduced.”
This is in the good column? If only we could take away their children and teach them proper ways as well. Oh wait we did tbat before. Although we banned then from pubs before too. Oh and the streets of Perth unless they had a special pass.’
======================================
And your considered policy advice is…?
Dr Bonham believes a NewsPoll is dropping tonight…
Liberal favourite cypher according to Rachelle Miller, and boyfriend of Senator Bridget McKenzie will be providing his impartial commentary…
C@
‘Zoomster, I don’t know why you waste your days with this miscreant either!?!’
Better than pulling the wings off flies.
And otherwise someone might take her comments seriously.
(Today was pretty funny, really…)
Thanks to those who contributed after little Pooh1 desperately tried to confuse the discussion on behalf of his shrinking Liberal party.
Now we are all ready to vote at the coming referendum:
Vote YES, if you support our First Nations to have a Voice enshrined in our constitution.
Vote NO, if you want our First Nations to have no Voice and to just shut up.
It’s simple, there is nothing complex about it.
“And your considered policy advice is…?”
If that is the best short term solution, well do it, but never ever for a moment think it is a good thing, nor that you’ve addressed in any way the actual problem. Have a great day.
yabba says:
Stop it, please. Just load AR’s excellent PB Comments Plug-in, and block her, for the sake your own and everybody else’s sanity and well being. Just let her continue to fart into the wind for her own amusement.
________
Yabba’s obsession with the scatological is easily seen in his writing.
Albrechtsen is a real doozy, isn’t she? Two of her brilliant picks lost their seats. The other two ‘young talents’ are senators. A talentless IPA drone who is the same age as Dutton (52), and a 38 year old who manages to get himself interviewed on 2GB drive, and by Rachelle and Albrechtsen’s mate Tom Connell from Sky News, and who was honoured to be elevated to a shadow ministry after the election defeat. Inspiring, eh!
Janet, you and Peta make a divine comedy couple, and the joke’s on you.
“sprocket_says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 7:21 pm
One from the recent vault – hasn’t aged well….”
Ha, ha, ha… Yes sprocket, they were supposed to age like a “good wine”…. but they aged like an “apple”: sweet one day… rotten shortly after.
Oh, is Tim Wilson back to suck from a well-known billionaire’s teats working with IPA? … Or is he showing his neo-Liberal credentials by starting his own courageous private enterprise, investing his own capital, for the benefit of the national economy?
Can anyone check?….
“yabba says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 8:04 pm
Albrechtsen is a real doozy, isn’t she?…”
Indeed yabba… When the kind of “intellectuals” your side of politics can offer look like little Janet, you know that your cause is doomed….
‘WeWantPaul says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 7:58 pm
“And your considered policy advice is…?”
If that is the best short term solution, well do it, but never ever for a moment think it is a good thing, nor that you’ve addressed in any way the actual problem. Have a great day.’
—————————————–
1. The situation in Alice Springs has been developing since the OT telegraph went through.
2. I predicted the current situation ten years ago when the Abbott Government cut hundreds of millions in spending from Indigenous programs. Inter alia, I predicted that this would force people out of remote communities and into Alice Springs with a consequent large increase in social problems.
3. The situation in Alice today represents a failure of the Intervention.
4. It is the solution broked with Albanese is one that Indigenous community leaders came up with and supported.
5. The solution dovetails with the policy approach of the NT Government through which each community will develop its own alcohol laws.
6. In the two days following suspension of take away alcohol in Alice Springs there was a drop of dozens of call outs relating to domestic violence and hundreds in general call outs relating to rock throwing, street assaults, car thefts and break and enters of domestic and commercial premises.
7. Whether that is, in your view, ‘a good thing’ is neither here nor there. Given your comments, this is probably fortunate for the people of Alice.
8. Albanese stated that addressing alcohol is only a part of the massive set of issues facing Alice Springs.
@Zoomster:
“ Oh for fuck’s sake!!
This is what I’ve wasted most of my day saying to you!‘
Amazeballs, but I understood your point the first time you made it. Just say’n.
“Boerwar says:
Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 8:11 pm”
Good job Boerwar…. I like your lists predictably smashing poor WW-P’s and Pooh1’s crap…
🙂