The Australian reports the latest Newspoll has Labor leading 53-47, in from 54-46 three weeks ago. The primary votes are Coalition 37% (up two), Labor 38% (steady), Greens 11% (steady) and One Nation 2% (down one). Scott Morrison is down two on approval to 44% and up two on disapproval to 52%, while Anthony Albanese is respectively steady on 37% and up two to 48%. Morrison’s lead as preferred prime minister has been cut from 48-34 to 46-38. The poll was conducted Wednesday to Saturday from a sample of 1524.
“The CPRS would have reduced a total 459 tonnes by 2020 from reports if it had been implemented and kept. What we have now is no carbon pricing policy at all under the Liberals.”
***
In 2020, pollution would be 464 million tonnes a year [with the Greens’ ETS still in place], compared with the 512 Mt we reached under the Liberals and the 529-585 Mt forecast under Kevin Rudd’s own poor first draft of a climate policy [the CPRS].
https://greensmps.org.au/articles/world-possibilities-lost-carbon-pricing-numbers
Firefox
“Good. The more people that learn the undeniable truth about Joe Biden – that he is a mass murdering war criminal who is responsible for the invasion of Iraq – the better.”
OTT.
The Greens once again demonstrating the political purity of the powerless.
Short, well-defined Labor ads have been appearing on YouTube for over a week. It would be foolish to spend too much money on ads while we’re in Morrison’s faux election campaign.
Dropping in daily to PB and getting utterly sick and tired of Labor v Coalition v Greens arguments over who did what, when and to who, not to mention the personal attacks on PBers.
This petty politicking does nothing but obscure the fundamental issue facing Australians this election. While policies are essential when making a choice, there is much more at stake.
Are we as a nation prepared to continue to allow the remorseless destruction of our democracy under this Government- to stand by while trust,accountability, decency and fairness disappear under the salesman who has made a mockery of the position he fills?
And yes, it’s not just this despicable Government that is responsible. Previous Governments of this nation have allowed this to happen as they have drifted away from Government of the People to Government of the Party.
Here on PB, while there is robust debate and fair commentary, a level of pettiness and insult detracts from the frightening realisation that democracy here in Australia is under attack.
The tide of democracy is going out while we argue who has the better spot on the beach.
Dan Andrews telling it like it is….. I think the fact that he’s perceived as a straight shooter and not cowed by the Murdochracy or the Victorian Liberal Party (who, to be fair, are so ineffectual that they’re more likely to induce hilarity than fear) accounts for the comparisons to Keating some were making yesterday. I don’t think he is nearly as effective a politician or communicator as Keating, but in the scheme of State Premiers he and his Government have been way above average.
—————-
Liberal MPs join protest at which fringe element promotes violence
“Mr Andrews, whose effigy was placed near a makeshift gallows at a protest on Monday night, said it was unfair for a “small, ugly mob” to take the attention away from the more than 90 per cent of Victorians vaccinated with a first dose of a coronavirus vaccine.
“I’m offended, not at the threats, but at the fact that this ugly behaviour might be taking the focus away from what we should be focused on – how much we’ve achieved by sticking together, not by being divided, not by this ugliness,” Mr Andrews said.
The Premier added that he did not believe Victorians would easily forget the people who had been on the front steps of State Parliament, “currying favour with extremists”.
Several state Liberal MPs yesterday visited a large and sometimes angry group of protesters gathered on the steps of Parliament House, some of whom had earlier chanted violent slogans around a full-sized gallows and called for people to “dance on the end of a rope”.
Victorian Deputy Premier James Merlino said there were people within the Liberal Party who were “actively encouraging this kind of extremist behaviour and extremist views”.
“So it includes say labor supporters wanting to send a message (and even then it isn’t really a loud enough message to be worth sending) .”
***
It is what it is – the first preference total for the Greens at the 2019 election – nothing more and nothing less. That’s how many people vote 1 Green. Like me, I’d guess that the other 1,482,922 people who gave the Greens their first preference did so because they are the party that best represents their views. If they had wanted to give Labor their first preference instead I’m sure they would have done so.
The obstruction of the CPRS in 2009 was not about the environment. It was not about climate change. It was not about policy. It was about the anti-Labor forces in the Senate combining to cancel Rudd…to knock him from his perch. This is exactly what happened.
The Greens and the LNP will never accept the legitimacy of a Labor Government. They will never respect the results of elections for the House. They will apply the politics and the tactics of intransigence. They are the Likud of the Australian Parliament.
The powers vested in the Senate, its ability to defy the House, the method of its election, its mal-apportioned composition combine to make the Senate a death zone for reformist politics and responsible, accountable, democratic government. The Rudd-Gillard years amply demonstrate this. The Greens and the LNP fully comprehend this and the exploit it to the nth degree.
Gettysburg1863 says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:52 am
Dropping in daily to PB and getting utterly sick and tired of Labor v Coalition v Greens arguments over who did what, when and to who, not to mention the personal attacks on PBers.
This petty politicking does nothing but obscure the fundamental issue facing Australians this election. While policies are essential when making a choice, there is much more at stake.
———
Mate – what you say is correct but unfortunately it was ever thus. if you spend a bit of time on PB you quickly identify those who thrive on dysfunction and learn to scroll right past their posts. There are some wonderful insightful contributions to this forum from a wide range of backgrounds and expertise which make it worthwhile hanging around, provided you can scroll past the partisan hackery.
Listened to some talk-back on ABC local radio early this morning and with only one exception, callers lambasted
Dutton for his call to arms, some saying that he was aping the “Yellow Peril” mantra exploited by Menzies in the ’50s & ’60s. Philip Clark will probably receive a call from
Fletcher, even Dutton.
Boerwar @ #1242 Wednesday, November 17th, 2021 – 9:40 am
Nope. The Cold War ended ages ago. You can stop fighting it.
Gettysburg1863 says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:52 am
…..the frightening realisation that democracy here in Australia is under attack.
The tide of democracy is going out….
Yes. We have a government composed of reactionaries and crooks. There is just one party – Labor – that can conceivably dislodge and replace them.
But this will not happen if the splitters and the pretenders have their way.
Labor has won from Opposition while its plurality has been divided just once since Federation. That was in 1972. If the splitters succeed, Labor will lose again in 2022. They are the enemy’s best friends.
“The Greens […] will never accept the legitimacy of a Labor Government.”
***
???
Of course, when push really does come to shove, the Green vote will shrivel up, as occurred in WA in March. The Greens lost 3/4 of their seats, their PV imploded. They encouraged voters to pref the zero-substance Cannabis Party…to pref anyone but Labor.
When the shift in PV to Labor occurs, they will attract votes from everyone – from the Hapless Right and the Junk Left. And they will attract prefs in equal measure. So when the tide comes in for Labor the Greens will lose their moorings. Consequently, the Greens will try to spoil Labor. At all times. In all places. In every way.
Firefox says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:08 am
A day of profound shame for Labor.
“ And, an easy lead into French nukes (with their LEU reactors) later if we still see a need.”
This is something for the engineers and scientists on bludger to perhaps, if so minded, contribute their thoughts. Let me set up this issue for discussion:
It seems to me that a major drawback with any nuclear SSN program is the potential lack of any real sovereign capability, such is the gap in our knowledge and skills base with the inherent technology involved: that would effectively leave us at the mercy of ANY potential prime contracting partner and hence present real risks of a future federal (especially Liberal party) government making extremely poor foreign and defence policy choices into the future over the fear that we would lose our most important defence asset if we disagreed with the foreign/defence policy of said prime contracting partner. Especially if we don’t have a concurrent SSK program in place to at least provide the basic sea denial capability I’ve referred to above.
It has been said by Morrison and Dutton that they ruled out the French because their LEU reactors needed to be refuelled every 10 years (so exactly twice in an expected 32 year lifespan, because refuelling occurs as part of the year long overhaul that happens every 10 years with that design), whereas the “Makita power battery from Bunnings” HEF reactors that the brits and Americans use dont need to be refilled over their 33 year lifespan and can be simply returned to Bunnings at the end of life. no questions asked.
As Malcolm Turnbull pointed out:
1. The French refuelling process only takes 3 weeks, and is done when the boats are out of service for a year anyway. therefore sending them to France for a refuel process and then to Adelaide for the rest of their refit is no big deal; and
2. The so-called ‘sealed’ HEF reactors are not that sealed: the reactors are constantly maintained by nuclear engineers and technicians throughout their life.
I note those two basic points are in addition to any proliferation concerns that having weapons grade uranium (enough for 6 nuclear weapons each apparently) inside our boats in this region have (I’m not suggesting any non proliferation treat violations, only strategic concerns).
It seems to me that whoever the prime contracting partner is – US, France or Britain – we will be wholly dependent on them for the design and construction phase of the program and largely dependent on them for the service life of the SSN boats.
Which leads me to this: Dutton and various strategic handclappers point out the inherent vulnerability we would have if we contracted to the French because they could effectively hold us to ransom every 10 years when any one of our SSNs had to be refuelled. Therefore – so the argument goes – we could be left without a key capability if we fell out with France. It seems to me that is no more a concern than what ive outlined above – at any stage any one of those prospective partners could put the squeeze on us – given our inherently weak position with that technology.
However, until Morrison happened, France was prepared to share all its IP regarding the Attack class with us, and transfer that technology as well. From what Turnbull said, macron appeared to be very open to partnering with us for a nuclear technology based submarine program as well. Therefore it seems to me that of the three potential nuclear submarine partners, France may well be the one prepared to assist us into obtaining not just nuclear boats, but a sovereign nuclear submarine capability.
Finally, this leads me to my inquiry of the engineers and scientists of bludger: given labor has ruled out the development of full nuclear power industry in Australia as part of its acceptance of this pivot, is there still anyway short of having a nuclear power industry for us to ultimately supply and install LEU uranium into any SSN fleet we acquire? It seems to me – as a lay person – the answer to that is yes because we (little old Australia) has developed an alternative enrichment technology to gas centrifuges: namely the laser based enrichment process developed by Sydney company Silex Systems based out of ANSTO at Lucas Heights. Which is currently contracted to enrich uranium from depleted stockpiles with the US Department of Energy. See:
https://www.aumanufacturing.com.au/silex-systems-presses-ahead-in-nuclear-enrichment-will-australia-follow
My question is this: is this technology a viable pathway for us ultimately refuelling LEU submarine reactors in South Australia by say 2047 (the earliest conceivable date that any French built Australian SSN would hav to be refuelled for the first time)? If the answer to that is ‘yes’, then doing we actually have a viable pathway to not just some nuclear boats, but a genuinely sovereign capability?
”
Firefoxsays:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:56 am
If they had wanted to give Labor their first preference instead I’m sure they would have done so.
”
After reading posts from Green supporters like you and Quoll, they will, don’t you worry about it, they will.
If your purpose is to make the people vote for Greens you are certainly driving them away.
You and Quoll come here and ridicule ‘Labor supporters’ and expect ALP to form an alliance with Greens. If your claim is they are abusing you too, What do you expect. You are doing a bang up job of converting them to Green supporters. You come and make people to run away from this blog.
I will run away now with your advent.
a r says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:07 am
Boerwar @ #1242 Wednesday, November 17th, 2021 – 9:40 am
What is your best guess?
Will the comrades attack?
Nope. The Cold War ended ages ago. You can stop fighting it.
==================================
No worries. I’ll put you on the ‘Peace in Our Time’ list.
“A day of profound shame for Labor.”
***
Julia and old mate Swanny don’t look too upset in that happy snap. It’s actually a genuinely nice photo of all of them. They all look excited to be entering into the agreement. Well they should have been to, as the deal between the Greens and Labor allowed the government to be quite a productive one.
Victoria records 996 new COVID-19 cases and nine deaths
It is the fourth consecutive day the state has recorded fewer than 1,000 new cases.
There are now 14,260 active cases of the virus in Victoria, and 433 people have died during the current Delta outbreak.
The new cases were detected from 72,010 test results received yesterday.
It comes as Victoria’s upper house looks set to pass new pandemic legislation, with debate continuing well into last night.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-17/victoria-covid-cases-and-restrictions-17-november/100626306
Good. The more people that learn the undeniable truth about Joe Biden – that he is a mass murdering war criminal who is responsible for the invasion of Iraq – the better. The unhinged part of all this is the absurd notion that a Senator is somehow not responsible for how they vote or for the consequences of that vote. Please bookmark it and share as widely as possible.
Your ‘mass murdering’ comment is a extreme, as it wasn’t then senator Joe Biden that initiated the war it was president George W Bush. But just on the topic of the war in Iraq it also damaged the political careers of Democrats Hilary Clinton and John Edwards for voting for the Iraq war. Both were concerned about being seen as Democrats that were soft on national security after 9/11. Clinton was particularly since she was a senator who was based in New York where after 9/11 national security was seen as a vulnerable issue.
It was a factor but it wasn’t only the factor why the two lossed against Barack Obama in 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. Obama spoke out at rally against the war when he was a state Illinois senator in 2002 calling it “a dumb war … a rash war.” which he ran hard on as the footage was recorded for his 2008 campaign. I’ll admit while I condemned Edwards vote for the Iraq war he was my preference. As he was the only candidate out of the three that supported Universal Health care. Edwards would also later admit that voting for the Iraq war was a mistake.
Clinton eventually won the nomination in 2016 but she would have preferred to have won it in 2008. Clinton was in the prime of her political career at her age in 2008 and ready to go. It was an easier election to win and voters were not fatigued after 8 years of a Democrats administration. Which was a factor but not the only factor in her loss in 2016.
Interestingly, Biden was also a candidate in 2008. But was largely seen as an after thought. And gained very little traction and pulled out of the race rather early in the race.
“After reading posts from Green supporters like you and Quoll, they will, don’t you worry about it, they will.
If your purpose is to make the people vote for Greens you are certainly driving them away.”
***
Yeah well from my perspective, you lot in the Labor Right are one walking talking advertisement for joining the Greens. You are the gift that keeps on giving. If you wonder why the Labor Left keep abandoning your party in droves, you need look no further than your own faction and the attitudes and hatred of the left from those within it.
Boerwar says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:21 am
a r says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:07 am
Boerwar @ #1242 Wednesday, November 17th, 2021 – 9:40 am
What is your best guess?
Will the comrades attack?
Nope. The Cold War ended ages ago. You can stop fighting it.
==================================
No worries. I’ll put you on the ‘Peace in Our Time’ list.
The Cold War conflict between the Soviet Union and the West is indeed over. Gorbachev conceded to Thatcher and Reagan.
Xi is a neo-Imperialist. He has set himself up to rule for life. He has taken control of all the instruments of power in China and is, to all intents, an Emperor in all but name. China’s course is now being determined by a near-absolute ruler. This has already brought China into conflict with other States and will continue to do so. Imperial China was a force in world history for thousands of years. It has been reincarnated.
PONE
If you are tired of Labor’s “follow-the-leader” policies, vote Independent.?
Ther will NEVER be enough of them to form GOVERMENT !.
Australian Cricket Test Squad announced. No Vics (except a WA ring-in).
I still cant find any announcements about vaccination requirements for crowds at Adelaide Oval. They are almost out of time for this if they want to use the ashes test as a way to increase the double dose vaccination rate.
“ No worries. I’ll put you on the ‘Peace in Our Time’ list.”
Little wonder that someone whose reading on the strategic geopolitical tectonic plates is limited to a balance between Global Times and Readers Digest trots out 4th form schools debating “appeasement is bad” logic. Hartcher did the shame in the SMH on Saturday. Khalil smudged Keating last year with the same line.
This is as near to brain dead as one can get and still have a pulse. Do better.
“Your ‘mass murdering’ comment is a extreme, as it wasn’t then senator Joe Biden that initiated the war it was president George W Bush.”
***
Think again. And keep in mind that the Dems had majority control of the Senate at the time. They could have stopped Bush but they didn’t because the likes of Biden and Clinton supported the invasion. Biden played a crucial role in drumming up support among the Dems to support the war in the Senate and give Bush the authorisation to use force. It would not have been possible without people like him and Clinton backing Bush. He is every bit as responsible for it as Bush is, and Howard for that matter. In fact, Biden is even more responsible than Johnny Coward, as Australia would never have gone to war in the first place had the US not done so. It really is black and white with no grey area. Biden is responsible for the invasion of Iraq – he voted for it – which makes him a war criminal.
Hopefully Khawaja, Neser and Swepson are selected instead of Harris, Starc and Lyon
http://olddogthoughts.com/2021/11/17/who-would-a-federal-icac-have-in-its-sights-let-us-count-the-ministers/
Saab have not too stood still. Their AIP system is 10% quieter and more capable, so I am guessing more efficient.
Any deal Australia makes will now come at a higher cost due to increased risks of breaking the contract and IP leakage.
Khawaja, Starc and who cares for my money for the first test. Starc should be strategically rested for the middle tests and I want to Jhye send done some thunderbolts.
“ Their AIP system is 10% quieter and more capable,”
Than what comparator? Their old AIP? not good enough in the era of fuel cell AIPs.
A-E
I’ll put you on the ‘Christ Knows’ list.
But you’ll have to be second on the list.
After me.
Hi Andrew, at work so cant really look up references, but my understanding of the Silex enrichment stuff is that the rights were bought locked up by the Americans as they were dead worried maybe someone they dont like would use it to set up enrichment facilities that are harder to spot than a bunch of centrifuges.
My position on the SSN / SSK debate hasn’t really changed. I think that given our strategic situation we are better of with “big”, conventional boats that we can actually support in Australia. We have allies with SSN’s that we can work with and good SSK’s will be a complementary capability to them.
Hear, hear. Not the only thing that needs to be added to Medicare either. Dental is another big priority. The Greens were able to get dental care for kids included in Medicare as part of the deal we did with Labor in 2010, now we want to try and get everyone’s dental care covered regardless of age. Oral health is vitally important and people shouldn’t have to miss going to the dentist just because they cannot afford the often hefty fees.
Pleased to see Albanese committing Labor to FTTP. It’s a no-brainer that has no risk of political pain.
As predicted months ago the 2030 emissions target would be the wedge of the Liberals and the Greens.
Morrison and Bandt, same same.
So pathetically predictable.
Last night on TV I saw a Palmer ad featuring himself talking. Perhaps I’ve missed similar ads lately but I wonder if using Kelly as frontman hasn’t worked out very well?
Kelly is a real nutjob and inciting the RW rioters in Melbourne certainly hasn’t improved his reputation. Could there be a bust up between Palmer and Kelly in the works?
Perhaps Folau is to be Palmer’s new frontman as Palmer chases the RW religious crowd?
Saab AIP is 10% quieter than their previous system.
The fuel cell system reforms diesel which needs pumps and pressure. There will be some noise and parasitic loses.
It should provide fresh water instead of processing seawater which would be in its favor.
“Pleased to see Albanese committing Labor to FTTP. It’s a no-brainer that has no risk of political pain.”
***
And something that has the Greens full support. We have always agreed that Rudd’s original FTTP version of the NBN was the right way to go. The Libs set us back decades by sabotaging the NBN on behalf of Murdoch and co.
Did anyone else pick up on the Greens slight of hand purloined by Firefox – straight out of Bandt’s self hagiography- not just once, but twice, regarding the CRPS debate:
“ … and the 529-585 Mt forecast under Kevin Rudd’s own poor first draft of a climate policy [the CPRS].”
“First draft”? What is meant by THAT?
Am I right in presuming that was not the forecast that accompanied the actual legislation that the greens voted down in November 2009? surely not … because that would put Bandt and Firefox in exactly the same class of ScoMo pinocchio school of self serving propaganda as the LNP.
surely not … the Greens are as big an anti labor bunch of liars as ScoMo and the LNP? say it ain’t so, Firefox.
And, with nothing to do with politics………..well maybe…………..I note that most/all criticism of Justin Langer and Marsh -mainly from sour-grape Eastern Staters – has disappeared.
These same critics are dinosaurs left over from the days when WA was not even in Shield cricket and, at one point, 10 or 11 players came from NSW…..No doubt, should we lose the Ashes, these trogs will again give voice to their prejudices……..
AE
“ And, an easy lead into French nukes (with their LEU reactors) later if we still see a need.”
No. Nuclear and conventional subs are quite different technologies. In fact, the latest AIP and battery advances for conventional boats are sending their designs even further apart. So little is gained here. Suggesting building Collins II now sounds like a coalition making excuses at not being able to start on nukes when they imagined. I fear they are stalling as the problems of AUKUS become more apparent.
“As Malcolm Turnbull pointed out:
1. The French refuelling process only takes 3 weeks, and is done when the boats are out of service for a year anyway. therefore sending them to France for a refuel process and then to Adelaide for the rest of their refit is no big deal; and
2. The so-called ‘sealed’ HEF reactors are not that sealed: the reactors are constantly maintained by nuclear engineers and technicians throughout their life.”
Yes. On this we are agreed. Nobody sends nuclear subs to sea without the capability to repair and maintain them. That is not the same as being able to build or fuel reactor cores, but yes a substantial amount of technical and highly skilled human support is required. Look at India’s nuke sub struggles, on complete boats they leased from Russia. So as I have said before, I cannot understand why the French boat has been ruled out for the reasons stated.
The British and US boats are larger and more capable than the French nuclear boat; if that is the reason the RAN prefer them (for longer deployments across big oceans), then OK, but lets say that reason, not make nonsense up that only offends the French because they know they have been duded over a big contract.
Perhaps Folau is to be Palmer’s new frontman as Palmer chases the RW religious crowd?
It’s not clear what state or spot Folau will be on the senate ballot if he agrees from the Fairfax article. I presume the state would be Queensland. if Folau was offered the number 2 spot it would make his chances of getting a senate seat almost impossible. He may be offered the number 1 spot though and the chances are would be the only way he would put his name on it if there was something in it for him. But it’s possible Palmer is saving the number 1 QLD UAP senate spot for himself to run. And only wants Folau to run in the No 2 sport to boost his chances. I agree it’s obvious this is a ploy to get out the religious freedom vote.
Seems to me Labor’s strategy is to save some advertising dollars by not funding a pointless phony campaign whose messages will dissipate into thin air within 24 hours at this point of the political cycle. Morrison just went on a blitz last week because of Newspoll being in the field. He probably told his cronies he’d fix everything up with some hi-viz glitz.
Didn’t quite work out that way, as it hadn’t all year.
In the meantime let Morrison get more and more frustrated and reckless, denying the undeniable, turning pamphlets into plans, lying his way through day after day, and generally confirming what even some of his tame media mates are now saying about his honesty and integrity. He’s got a warehouse full of last year’s bullshit to clear, and nobody’s buying.
‘First draft”? What is meant by THAT?’
***
I believe it’s a reference to the fact that the CPRS never reached a final position, as Labor and the Libs couldn’t reach agreement on it. It never made it beyond drafts and proposals because it was still under negotiation when Turnbull was knifed and the whole thing went up in smoke. There is no final version of the CPRS because it never made it that far, unlike the ETS.
Andrew_Earlwood says:
Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 12:04 pm
Did anyone else pick up on the Greens slight of hand purloined by Firefox – straight out of Bandt’s self hagiography- not just once, but twice, regarding the CRPS debate:
“ … and the 529-585 Mt forecast under Kevin Rudd’s own poor first draft of a climate policy [the CPRS].”
“First draft”? What is meant by THAT?
A_E….the Greens lie systematically about Labor. At all times. In all places. In every way.
Speaking of former PM’s I was please to see New Daily print Keating’s reply to critics in the SMH.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/politics/australian-politics/2021/11/17/paul-keating-smh-china-reply/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning%20News%20-%2020211117
This is why we need independent media. I subscribe to Crikey, New Daily and the Guardian.
I thought it was very poor form for the Age and SMH not to give Keating any right of reply over the highly critical Hartcher article. It is not that I agree with Keating over China; I thought he went too far. But that implied right of free speech is looking pretty shaky when even a former PM cannot defend themselves. Consider all the diatribes from John Howard they have printed without response.
pukka
“Saab have not too stood still. Their AIP system is 10% quieter and more capable, so I am guessing more efficient.”
True, but all the subs are getting quieter. The US, British and French nuke subs have all gotten quieter simply by using impellers. The Japanese have gone the battery route. All are getting quieter.