The recent action and excitement in federal politics continues to make no impression on the polls. This week’s reading of the BludgerTrack aggregate nudges very slightly to the Coalition on two-party preferred, but the vagaries of state breakdowns cause Labor to pick up two on the seat projection, with a gain apiece in New South Wales and Victoria. The only new addition this week is the regular Essential Research result, which provided no new data on leadership ratings. Full results on the sidebar.
lizzie @ #99 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:14 am
Cool!
Really good isn’t it?
AR
I am having trouble with the “Quote” function with C+.
When quoting a post- for instance
………………………………………………………………………………………………
lizzie (Block)
Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 8:41 am
Comment #43
adrian
nothing more than a government stenographer.
But dead boring with it. Like Abetz. By the time he gets to the end of a sentence, the beginning has been lost.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Maybe the original post contained errors but I have found several problems such as this.
Your advice please ❗
🙏🙏🙏
Perhaps others have had similar problems.
If it was revealed before he was declared the electorate won’t get a say in it will they?
zoomster @ #34 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 4:31 am
That’s also the underlying story and the most repulsive element in things like WWF. (Pro-Wrestling)
If I’m stronger than you I’ll take what I want, but if I’m losing I’ll cheat and do anything I can despite the rules to win.
And that’s all completely OK because all that matters is the final result.
I wonder how many of the ideas like these are a reflection of the Society, or if they have an impact on Society as to acceptable behaviour.
Why aren’t doctors considered as profiting from the Crown, to a greater or lesser extent?
Ms Keay, who was a British citizen on the night of the election, is relying on the steps she took to renounce her dual citizenship to make her eligible for Parliament.
In February 2016, the Labor Party’s legal division notified Ms Keay of the required steps to be eligible as a candidate – but it was not until the election was called in May she began the renunciation process.
The emotional MP teared-up when explaining why it took three months to renounce her British connection.
“I delayed it – it’s one of those things with the citizenship I knew I could never get it back,” she said.
“If I don’t get elected I can’t get my citizenship back and for me, it was a very personal thing.
“I try not to be upset about it but – it was that last tangible connection with my dad.”
Could never get back, very personal, last tangible connection.
A very honest admission, but she did g o ahead and renounce.
How many of those in question did not renounce for the same reasons that Keahy outlined, relying on their sense of entitlement, arrogance and that they would not be found out.
These are the sort of questions the ABC should be asking, not do you feel hard done by.
Citizen,
He was suggesting a 50% write down could be necessary, if I recall correctly!
Bludgers might like to reflect on a pair of individuals who these days would be considered to be dual citizens. I’m thinking of John Monash and Talbot Hobbs, who both commanded the Australian Army in the Great War. Monash’ parents were Prussian Jews. Hobbs was born in London.
The conceived and carried out the plan to retake Villers-Bretonneaux in 1918, among their many formidable deeds. Monash was regarded with suspicion because of his religious and national heritage though Hobbs was not.
Theses days they are considered to be very great military commanders and were utterly revered by their men.
Yet today they would not, on their face, be able to be chosen for election without satisfying some absurd legalism that was – and still is – rooted in prejudice.
The effect of S44(i) will be to overturn possibly dozens of elections on the most spurious of grounds.
It should be repealed.
As Keahy notes “never get back”
The process once started appears to be irreversible with the only option of regaining citizenship being if your other citizenship is annulled by that government.
I dont think there is even the option of saying through the process, if you failed to get elected, hang on I’ve changed my mind. You would have to give a reason and I think the authorities would take a very dim view of being played for personal purposes and respond sorry that it is not a valid reason.
briefly @ #108 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:23 am
You really are reaching on this one. But at least you are no longer claiming a proposal to repeal would receive overwhelming support. The Essential poll shows otherwise.
I know you are active in the ALP – is your obsession with this issue because you are a dual citizen and hope to one day be able to stand without renouncing?
Good morning
Hollie Hughs to be referred to full High Court on eligibility
Keahy and the others could be viewed as starting an irreversible process before the date of nomination.
The effective date of the renunciation is a timing matter out of their hands, most courts would see this as reasonable.
You start setting determinate dates and you will end up with a myriad of judgements that will further cloud the issue. The reasonable efforts test brings in a common sense approach that sets out boundaries.
What if Keahy and others had started the process well before nomination date and then the UK went to war delaying their renunciation.
What if a candidate divested themselves of business interests linked to government before nomination date but that divestion was found to be invalid due to an error by asic or another government agency.
what if a candidate resigned from a office of profit but that resignation was invalid because a necessary clearance form had not been done by the body.
Hughes ruling will be interesting. I hope they apply common sense and hold that her resigning her position prior to declaration as elected is enough.
briefly,
I doubt that Monash would have wanted to be a politician.
Why aren’t doctors considered as profiting from the Crown, to a greater or lesser extent?
Probs those directly employed are, the others are self employed.
Presumably a nation prepared to confer citizenship will be disappointed if someone renounces such that it will let them stop the process before the renunciation is finalised.
Windhover @ #74 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 5:46 am
Did you see ratsak’s post in the last thread?
He went more fully into the actual decisions of the relevant HC rulings as you have.
It’s only 1 or 2 pages from the end if you want to go back.
I’d be interested in your views.
Ratsak:
The Fink is eminently qualified to give an opinion. His opinion (as reported) does seem to contradict my post. What to do?
I would expect interested bludgers to accept that there is doubt about the matter unless and until either there is a legal consensus that supports one proposition or the other or, ultimately, a further HC decision. [I predict eminent lawyers will, eventually, give very strong reasons to dispute the Fink’s alleged opinion.]
I would expect very interested bludgers to look to see if the Fink (or any other eminent lawyer) gives a published opinion so that the strength of the opinion can be examined. I would hope that those same very interested bludgers would test the strength of my post.
I am very happy to stake the reputation of Windhover* on my assertion that Keay is doomed AND that if her matter is ever heard in the HC it will be decided very quickly without resort to any other authority than its decisions in Sykes (for timing) and Canavan et al (for the Constitutional imperative). (In other words, notwithstanding the report of the Fink’s opinion – and whether or not the report is accurate, I have no doubt as to my conclusions previously expressed. )
* my reputation should be worthless in any event. I am an anonymous keyboard poster.
Is Bartlett being referred for eligibility?
ratsak @ #103 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:19 am
Well he will have to relinquish that citizenship and go to another by-election.
I think that will get people really irate.
Here’s a well referenced and reasonably in depth piece on Voluntary Assisted Dying. I post it as a resource. In the Australian context, it focuses on the Victorian legislation. The NSW proposal is somewhat tighter.
The URL title is a bit misleading in that it covers and references a lot more material than ‘slippery slopes’.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/factcheck/2017-11-10/fact-check-do-assisted-dying-laws-lead-to-a-slippery-slope/9116640
Russia Investigation Reaches Trump’s Inner Circle As Mueller Zeros In On Obstruction Of Justice
CNN reported that Mueller asked Miller about the Comey firing, “The interview brings the special counsel investigation into President Donald Trump’s inner circle in the White House. Miller is the highest-level aide still working at the White House known to have talked to investigators. Miller’s role in the firing of FBI Director James Comey was among the topics discussed during the interview as part of the probe into possible obstruction of justice, according to one of the sources.”
Mueller has interviewed former press secretary Sean Spicer, former chief of staff Reince Priebus, and now a member of Trump’s inner circle. Mueller also has the original draft of the letter firing Comey, and other documents related to the Comey firing.
It is clear that the Special Counsel is locking in on potentially charging Trump with obstruction of justice. The White House continues to claim that the Russia investigation is winding down, but judging from who Mueller and his team are talking to, things are still heating up.
http://www.politicususa.com/2017/11/09/russia-investigation-reaches-trumps-circle-mueller-zeros-obstruction-justice.html
Once the cartoonist start portraying you as an idiot you are history.
It happened early with Abbott, never with Howard, Rudd or Gillard, and not Turnbull until recently. Now he is portrayed as wounded and lost and silly.
CTar1 @ #107 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:22 am
And IMHO it will go higher as more is wasted installing obsolete FTTN junk and obsolescent HFC kludges. Just insane.
briefly @ #108 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:23 am
More prolix bollocks.
Give it a rest. You are becoming a vexatious crank.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/state-walks-away-from-joint-study-on-trackfree-trams-for-parramatta-road-20171108-gzhogs.html
Track free tram being a fancy term for ‘electric bus’, I really am unsure why a study would even be needed?
Electric busses are operational in many parts of the world already. Wellington has some with overhead cables. Canberra has rolled out a couple of battery powered ones.
Wellington is removing theirs VE
The idea was bonkers from day one anyway.
Hughes ruling will be interesting. I hope they apply common sense and hold that her resigning her position prior to declaration as elected is enough.
They didn’t with Cleary, saying had to be before nominating.
However they could take approach with Hughes for the senate vacancy that date of nomination is date of announcing availability to fill the position.
That is the position is declared vacant, candidates next in line declare their availability to take up the position, a candidate may declare they will not take up the position as the WA greens candidate was thinking at one stage.
It is a similar situation to the recount in Tas where a recount would technically see a senator unelected, but they are not looking at the process for all senators only for the senate spot declared vacant.
Take a approach that Hughes was a valid candidate at time of nomination, which she was, and is a valid candidate at time of confirmation, which she will be.
Briefly
I think you will find you were absolutely wrong on Monash.
His status as a German was definitely under review before he joined the army and evenif he did not formally relinquish it something similar DID happen, in that he had to make some sort of special declaration about his loyalty to Australia/Britan. I do not recall what it was but I do recall that his loyalty WAS questioned.
Therefore if he had wanted to go into Parliament (he did at one stage) there can be little doubt he would have made the effort to relinquish his German citizenship. he would also I think have been well aware of S44 or similar provisions – including provisions for being a public servant and joining the army.
For what it is worth there was talk of Monash going for Parliament but it was opposed. The Conservatives thought hi TOO popular and feared (or so they said) dictatorship. In reality his religion was probably more significant, along with some irregularity in his private life.
Shellbell
I suspect that a well written letter to HM’s Secretary of State for the Home Office setting out the reason for renouncment was Australia’s strange Constitutional law would get an outcome of restoration of Pommie citizenship.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-10/hollie-hughes-complication-senate-replacement/9137208
So another big political day next Wednesday.
* my reputation should be worthless in any event. I am an anonymous keyboard poster.
all good mate. Same boat. Much more interesting to and fro than some of the stuff that passes for debate.
P1, I have no personal political ambitions. I’m motivated by my commitment to equality and to opposing prejudice. This stems from a long series of events in the life of my family – and in my life too – that resulted in dispossession, alienation, violence and, more than any of these sorrows, also in experiences of liberation.
My family – going back for at least 200 years – have encountered prejudice of various kinds. These have included anti-semitism, the violent repression of a first people, the stealing of children, the rejection of the immigrant, public shaming and exile, sexism (so often), homophobia (such agony) and various other gratuitous punishments and humiliations.
I reckon you can take your cynicism and stick it up your self-satisfied and condescending arse.
There was no problem with Andrew Bartlett apparently
Dtt… the point about Monash is that he was a target for mindless prejudice even though his allegiance and his capacity could never be reproached.
The enemy is prejudice, not the dual citizen
Briefly
Hobbs could be chosen today. All he needs to do is send an email to the UK, pay a small fee and renounce his UK citizenship. Easy peasy.
You are also notgrasping the political situation in 1914. In WWI Australai fought for BRITAIN so Hobb’s status as a Londoner is irrelant. He commanded Australian troops, but many British commanded indian and other troops. Australia was fighting for Britain, so Hobb’s loyalty would neer have been questioned. he was in any case under the command of the BRITISH Army as were all australians.
It was not until the fall of Singapore that there was a significant shift in troops being Australian first rather than British.
I don’t think there would be another by election would there if it comes out before he is declared? The AEC would probably say it’s not their business and declare him anyway, but the loser in the by election would have an incredibly strong case to have the result declared in their favour at the HC I would think.
Being ineligible at a by election for exactly the same reason as you were declared ineligible resulting in said by election would just be taking the piss and the simplest solution open to the court would be to treat you as a serial pest and simply have a recount.
Voice Endeavour @ #126 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 10:47 am
They have a history in Sydney. I have a vague memory of them, orange coloured, running out Kogarah way.
Presumably a nation prepared to confer citizenship will be disappointed if someone renounces such that it will let them stop the process before the renunciation is finalised.
they could get upset if they saw that person using the process for personal gain only and they were being played, like withdrawing it if lost out at the election.
then again if process started and UK went to war renunciation could be withdrawn as person wants to fight for UK. War reason for delaying process may be to allow for this or to allow for executing person as a traitor if they were a citizen fighting against UK in that war.
there does not appear to be anything on UK site about withdrawing/ cancelling once process started but there may be in the complete legislation.
briefly @ #101 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 6:23 am
Who’s to say they would not happily comply?
Nash vacating a 6 year term, does that mean Fierravanti-Wells’ 3 year term gets upgraded to 6 years? and Hughes/whoever gets a 3 year term?
Or does Hughes/? get 6 years?
Hollie Hughes should be OK. Surely it is her status at the time of nomination and possible election 2016, not what she has done since the declaration of the poll. Provided she resigns her position before being declared elected under the recount process
* my reputation should be worthless in any event. I am an anonymous keyboard poster.
all good mate. Same boat. Much more interesting to and fro than some of the stuff that passes for debate.
Yar, yar same here, is quite interesting and can have practical applications sometimes.
Dtt….you fail to grasp the basic point. These men were entrusted with command of the army -accepted at face value on the strength of their abilities and their talents. Evidence of their loyalty did not depend satisfying a legalism rooted in prejudice.
S44(i) is our own imperialist Macarthyism. It is puerile and it is contrary to our everyday self-understanding.
Boris @ #102 Friday, November 10th, 2017 – 6:24 am
Actually British citizenship, once renounced may be re-obtained, only if you renounce it a second time is it gone for ever.
What’s to stop Labor from tabling their papers of renunciation etc. in senate next week?
Briefly “In reality his religion was probably more significant, along with some irregularity in his private life.”
IIRC things might have got messy when as an engineer working on the outer circle railway in Melbourne he might have been too friendly with the bosses wife.
Yeah I think Hughes is more to clarify (which in the situation is sensible) than any serious question of knocking her out. The idea that you have to refrain from accepting any government job after losing in an election for the entirety of the term after you lost just in case someone who did win a seat is subsequently ruled in eligible is too stupid for words.
I won’t go as far as Trumble with the so holds, but it would certainly be a novel (and frankly ludicrous) approach to rule against her.
Jen
Nothing.
LNP don’t have numbers to block
Dtt…the Australian Army Corp was under British command at first. By the end of 1917, Australian forces were under Australian command, first by Monash and then by Hobbs.