The return of Newspoll, along with the usual weekly result from Essential Research, has docked both major parties slightly on the primary vote, with One Nation continuing to go onward and upward. The difference on two-party preferred is slightly in favour of Labor, who also pick up one in Queensland on the seat projection. Leadership ratings from Newspoll send both leaders downward on net satisfaction, with no change on preferred prime minister.
Coalition’s three point innovative and agile plan for the future.
1. Lie.
2. Deliver wind-powered NBN.
3. Deliver coal-fired renewables.
Trog,
I’ll drop the nuance.
1. Batteries are still really, very expensive,
2. Encouraging customers to pay for energy storage technology is a way for generators, retailers and network companies to shift technology risk onto those least able to bear it (individual customers), and
2. There are cheaper ways to implement the same services.
For me personally batterery storage is where the ALP can lead on policy.
It’s a very easy pitch to make. Their policy should be to offer subsidies to Australian owned and operated companies to ramp up production to make it affordable for households and business to take it up.
The subsidy will be more than offset by consumers using less power,meaning lower power bills,plus consumers having more disposable income to spend,in cafes,bars,restaurants…etc,etc,etc. Win Win.
Yes Guytaur – that reality is becoming chrystal clear to some….but I just hope voters understand the reality.
Do not need a Greens v Labor scenario now!
It is our generation that is missing out not just future generations because of this government
Re Don @10:18. That makes perfect sense – diversify. Adani decide that they are in the Energy business, not the coal business. If I had big investments a dying industry (e.g. coal), I would be looking to move over time into a rising industry (e.g. renewwables). And that’s what Australia as a whole should be doing. We can’t drop coal tomorrow, even if that were a good idea, but we need a longer term strategy to replace it in our energy mix and our exports. But no one, least of all the Government, is thinking beyond the next few years. They just seem to have decided to do nothing, until ‘events’ make the decision for them.
c@tmomma @ #61 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 9:11 am
c@tmomma @ #63 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 9:12 am
poroti
#69 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 9:22 am
A simpler headline for their wind power bull dust.
Lying Bastards
Please keep it up troops ❗
You are all working well in a humourous fashion, highlighting the absolute, abysmal, asinine, assholes of the LNP. :Effing big smilie:
Boerwar
Excellent summary. 🙂
Turnball is flat out lying and then blaming others when he get’s called out – unbelievable.
This is unbelievable in what way exactly? Pretty much what I’ve said Turnbull was like for years.
Excellent summary.
Nah, far too overcomplicated for a real Lib plan.
How it actually goes is:
1. Cop the money from vested interests
2. Do and say whatever they want (no matter how stupid).
LU
So you are saying AGL are economic dunces then.
The New York example cited in the article is just so much bs.
Are you joining LNP in denying reality?
Ratsak
Libs can only work towards policy decisions in baby steps. “Try the lies before you buy”.
Re batteries. How do the economics stack up when taking into account their limited life span ?
If most of the media were not so keen to avoid criticising this government and calling out their constant lies, we wouldn’t be in the situation that we are now.
Calling a spade a friggin’ teaspoon with diamond encrusted handle is their standard operating procedure when it comes to the LNP for at least the last decade.
trog sorrenson @ #56 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 9:06 am
Well, I don’t think there has been an instance yet – but with lithium batteries I guess this is entirely possible.
This is not “grid” storage – it seems to be a fairly standard domestic solar PV system with a grid feed capability, and it is a trial being heavily subsidized by both AGL and ARENA. But even taking into account the subsidies and user charges, this storage appears to be costing AGL about $8000 per MwH (if I have my Levelized Cost of Storage calculations correct). This has got to be the most expensive storage on the planet. By comparison, true grid-level storage, such as pumped hydro and compressed air (the cheapest storage options) are both around $150 per MwH. In fact, this domestic-level battery storage appears to be many times more expensive than just using the same batteries for grid-storage (which is about $1000 per MhW).
In other words, this is an expensive publicity stunt, pure and simple.
Even given the ridiculous power prices being paid in SA (varying from $60 MWh to $9,000 MWh) this system would not be economic for a power generator. It would not even be economic for a punter paying retail rates, unless it was being heavily subsidized.
Clueless posters should learn to look behind the headlines.
Deadwood GG today main headline is about electricity and informs us that the “heat” is “on”………………………….. yes, you guessed it, Labor 🙂
libertarian unionist @ #102 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 10:31 am
Blast! I wish I could be as concise as this! : )
Ah, G, nuance is not your strong point?
AGL are following a profit-maximising strategy, that happens to involve batteries in one region of the country. You’ll also note that they bought up big on coal-fired assets only a few years ago. I trust them slightly more than I trust PM Malcom.
The New York example is great, and we are trying to develop the same things here (albeit hamstrung by our regulatory arrangements), check out: the AEMC’s distribution market model approach paper and the AER’s proposal for a new demand management incentive scheme, for two current examples. But their goal is to secure supply, which happens to be done most cost-effectively through renewable distributed generation and storage.
Now, I am not saying customer-owned batteries are useless or have no suitable applications, they do.
I am saying that they are more expensive than many options for managing manynetwork and most system-wide problems. For some examples, read: this:http://reneweconomy.com.au/new-thinking-not-new-generators-will-keep-lights-17331/
And remember, battery companies want to sell batteries. They will appeal to whatever is salient to make the sale. If you are environmentally-minded, they will exploit this to sell you something that may not make financial sense to you, as a customer, or enviro-economic sense if your ultimate goal is enact system-wide change in order to halt climate change.
Poorly, but it is the inverter that wears out first, and when it blows, that’s it. Lithium and PV generator performance simply degrade (jut like your phone battery).
P1
In a nutshell, the study explains that renewable energy has high upfront costs but is extremely cheap to run, given the fuel — wind and sun — comes at no cost. Gas plants are cheaper to build, but have higher running costs.
But there’s one crucial cost that weighs heavily on the minds of investors and bankers. And that’s carbon.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-13/ian-verrender-the-simple-truth-on-renewable-energy/8264296
Thats why Renewables are going to win. Once capital cost out of the way costs reduce drastically with renewables. This from someone who also says gas is part of the mix for right now.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-13/ian-verrender-the-simple-truth-on-renewable-energy/8264296
G,
You need either copious storage, peaking plants or a serious degree of load-side flexibility to balance a power system will high levels of primary energy supplied by renewable sources.
Helpfully (although not ideally), gas is much less carbon intensive that coal, being hydrocarbon. This makes it a useful (although not ideal) bridge between the present and the future.
Anyway, that’s it for me for today. Enjoy the spectacle of Barnaby poking the Libs with a red-hot poker.
Abbott has apparently told Ray Hadley that if it was up to him he would put the Nats ahead of One nation.
Turnbull said it is not up to him so he doesn’t have an opinion.
His weakness defies description at times .
P1
In other words renewables are at the same economic levels as roads. If the government pays the up front costs the revenue generated can pay for it. Thats the worst case scenario with storage today.
LU and P1
We also know that wind power was NOT a problem with the South Australia power blackouts.
It was management of the Grid.
That means current wind power is economic if you run the system properly.
Australia is a rapidly unadvancing country and now we are facing the problems that all countries with corrupt governments face: failing infrastructure and planning for failure.
In most third world countries, the better off have their own backup for power at home, batteries and businesses also have backup generators. That is where we are heading now, whatever this gov does, we are years away from having a system that is planning for the future. I understand that the sales of generators has gone through the roof in SA.
I am in Melbourne and have solar already, on the low rate for feedin tariff, very low power bills already. But I am getting the Tesla battery system installed to keep the lights on. I do not trust the system to stay working in the medium term and I can afford the energy security. Also I expect the batteries will slowly pay for themselves over the next decade, that is a lesser concern.
Shorten speech on 24 from parliament now
Sorry must have been a replay not live my mistake
Player One – 20 years ago, a terrabyte of computer storage would cost about $1 million. Now it costs about $100. In view of the massive economic incentives to produce cheaper batteries, why aren’t we going to see a similar evolution.
That sound of pattering feet you hear is the stampede of Small-L Liberals out of the Liberal Party. Malcolm is busily torching his party’s electability to save his own job. Seriously, he must be a labor plant.
ATM good policy debate re our energy future is being lost in the noise. Exactly the result Turnbull is seeking. This will continue and the MSM will ignore the detail and concentrate on the easy ” both sides as bad as the other ” and ” while Australia burns the broken political system engages in hysterical argument ” superficial nonsense.
Now is a great time for Shorten and labor to call for a end to this rubbish, join together with industry and other stakeholders and nut out a bipartisan policy direction.
Put the renewerable target on the table for discussion and debate as a sign of labors willingness to leave nothing out and at the same time demand a price on carbon be front and centre as part of any realistic debate and negotiation.
Then over to Malcolm. Watch the Nationals and some Libs rant and rave over any mention of a carbon price. Labor will have done its bit and it would be up to Turnbull to go from there.
Yes, it is political in part but that is what the system is. If a consensus can be reached in some form that would be good. If the government refuses to even consider a price on carbon as part of the mix or even refuses the bipartisan approach from labor then once and for all it will be clear what Turnbull and co stand for or do not stand for. They will show themselves to be tje hypocrites Tory are.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
If the price is realistic than the uptake of battery storage will increase.
http://reneweconomy.com.au/australian-battery-storage-costs-may-fall-40-two-years-28839/
As the cost fall more people will uptake the technology.
That sound of pattering feet you hear is the stampede of Small-L Liberals out of the Liberal Party.
Malcolm is betting on there being enough right wing authoritarians in the wider community to get the party across the line. Right wing authoritarianism is increased by fear and insecurity. Expect to hear more about jihadis coming to get us.
Doyley: I don’t see anything particularly unclear about Labor’s policy: a 50% renewables target and a price on carbon. The message is getting smudged (though not a lot) but that will happen whatever Labor does.
Steve777 – I think the only line Malcolm wants to get across is in his own party room. He doesn’t give a s… about winning the next election. The fact Tony is now saying the Libs should support One Nation instead of the Nats is a pretty good sign that that is electoral poison, cos he will do anything to make sure Malcolm fails.
Trump Whines About Fake Media Not Covering His Crowds As Presidency Teeters Near Collapse
Donald Trump has some serious issues that are absolutely getting in the way of his ability to function on any kind of expected, adult level.
This was never cute. But now President Trump is whining about the media not covering his “enthusiastic supporters” while Russian smokes threatens to bring this country down thanks to him and his administration. This is more than pathetic. It’s deeply troubling.
http://www.politicususa.com/2017/02/12/russian-smoke-burns-d-c-trump-whines-media.html
oops, misread what Tony said.
“Silicon will blow lithium batteries out of water, says Adelaide firm”
A 70cm cube of molten silicon would blow itself out of the water.
The SA State opposition “leader” Steve Marshall demonstrates the Liberal definitions of integrity and teamwork in still attacking windpower.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-13/sa-liberals-pledge-to-scrap-renewable-target/8264704
Liberal “Teamwork” = everyone tells the same lie
Liberal “Integrity” = everyone sticks to their lie over time.
Anton,
Fair enough.
What is needed now is for the Turnbull Government to be stripped down and shown to be hollow. Get industry, unions etc etc together and put a stamp on some direction forward. At least then it will be clear that Turnbull is a fraud if he refuses to be part of it or if he rejects without even considering at the very least a electricity intensity scheme and believe me that is what industry wants.
Labor may have a clear policy but what is needed is a clear statement of what Turnbull does not stand for.
ATM, it is all being lost and that is exactly what Turnbull wants.
Cheers.
One Nation voters are mostly right wing voters who think the Liberals are too full of the milk of human kindness when it comes to Muslims, brown people and other foreigners who don’t look or talk like themselves. The Liberal party wants to bring them back into the fold, or at least their preferences. John Howard did it, helped by the Tampa but he probably would have pulled it off anyway.
The Liberals would dearly love another Tampa moment should one occur and will be on the lookout for ‘events’ that they can exploit. They are masters at lying and twisting ‘events’ that do present themselves. Look at how they are using the recent heatwave not to talk about climate change but to advance their war on renewables and through this, attack Labor and the Greens.
guytaur @ #54 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 9:01 am
The latest Coalition strategy to win the next election is to convince the public that Labor has been in government since 2013 and make the case to give the Coalition opposition a go.
guytaur @ #119 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 11:05 am
This is not true. There are ongoing costs with renewables. They are generally much less than fossil fuels, true – but they are not zero. If you forget this, you will not understand why some will still choose to burn coal. If you happen to have your own coal supply nearby (or coal stockpiled) and all the infrastructure already built, coal may continue to be the cheapest way to generate electricity for quite a while yet.
True. But they have half the C02 emissions of coal, and they can be built on a large scales in realistic time frames. This is not true of many other options.
The only thing that weighs on the minds of investors is money. Investors are leery of investing in new coal plants because they can see they will eventually end up with “stranded assets” – i.e. they will not get a good overall return on their capital, and not because of the carbon emissions. Despite what they may say to the media.
I agree renewables will eventually win. Our main difference is that you believe that renewables can win in time to avoid further investment in alternatives. This is not the case – the scale of the problem in places like India and China (and the US) is simply too large, even assuming quite unrealistic increases in the use of renewables. Australia is lucky – we can invest in new gas plants to easily meet our Paris commitments. The rest of the world is not so lucky – they will have to invest in gas, nuclear and various other technologies to do the same. In the end, some countries will have to be forced off coal.
antonbruckner11 @ #127 Monday, February 13, 2017 at 11:21 am
We will, no question. And your time frame is probably about right – we have about 2 decades before the problem resolves itself by making catastrophic climate change irreversible.
Are you a gambling man?
http://johnmenadue.com/blog/?p=9414
Mungo nails it again
Player One – You really are being ridiculous. Viable home batteries are already down to $10,000 (they’re not at $1 million) and will surely be down to a couple of thousand in a few years before plunging either further.
Player One, instead of concentrating you mind on every conceivable negative re renewables maybe you should think about what might happen if a sane and rational government invested the amount it currently gives to the coal and mining lobby into renewables.
Throw in the cost of a few largely useless subs, and a few other redundant defence items, and any conceivable objection that you may have would be overcome.
It isn’t renewables that are the problem, it’s our useless, lying and corrupt government.
Can’t understand why you are so willing to let them off the hook.
Doyley
Do not believe it Labor’s fault message is getting lost – they are being consistent; in the message they are putting out and pointing out the absolute inconsistency of the Coalitions
Look to the media for a starting point
When you have the Business council and others asking for better policy time to move on
Socrates
The worrying thing is that the SA Libs are ‘due’ for a win next election. I wouldn’t be surprised if the public buy into the Libs lies on the issue of renewables.
Viable for what, exactly? Use numbers.
Clearly the Californian regulators don’t get their energy management (battery) policy from reading Poll Bludger. (Note: Since the article below was written, Tesla lithium ion battery costs have reduced considerably.)
http://fortune.com/2016/09/15/tesla-grid-battery-project/
Time and again the media bleat about the lack of a bipartisan approach and blame both sides equally. Time and again NO MAINSTREAM POLITICAL JOURNALIST will report that a bipartisan approach is not possible on the big issues as long as one side maintains the view that ‘bipartisanship’ means accepting their position. This is what the Coalition has been doing since 2009. It continues to do this. Right down to stupid lumps of coal as props.
Some of the press gallery are waking up to how dangerous to their own children’s future the Coalition policy is. But they still won’t call them out.