Today’s Daily Telegraph has a YouGov poll showing 46% support for a yes vote in a referendum on an indigenous voice compared with 30% for no, with 24% undecided. Support was at 61% among Labor voters, 31% among Coalition voters and 72% among the small sample of Greens voters. Sixty-eight per cent rated that the government had done a poor job of explaining how the voice would work, with no detail provided on other responses. The poll was conducted online “last week” from a sample of 1069. UPDATE: The poll was limited to New South Wales.
Other than that, the only bit of recent polling I’m aware of is the return of Roy Morgan’s weekly update video and its regular serving of thin gruel on federal voting intention. This records Labor’s two-party lead at 59.5-40.5, out from 58.5-41.5 before the summer break, and a notably wide gap from a series that had found Labor with relatively modest leads for much of last year.
Also:
• Following the death on Tuesday of New South Wales Liberal Senator Jim Molan, reports suggest the front-runner to succeed him is fellow conservative Dallas McInerney, chief executive of Catholic Schools NSW. However, Max Maddison of The Australian reports some moderates believe the faction should try to poach the seat for one of their own, the chief contenders being defeated Wentworth MP Dave Sharma, unsuccessful Gilmore candidate Andrew Constance and thwarted Warringah preselection hopeful Jane Buncle. Tony Abbott has ruled out a suggestion by former Victorian state party president Michael Kroger that the position should go to him, although Dennis Shanahan of The Australian today reports that would be open to a lower house seat if it had “overwhelming support” in the party.
• Matthew Knott of the Sydney Morning Herald reported on Thursday that moderates were urging Marise Payne to create a second New South Wales Senate vacancy by retiring shortly after the March state election, potentially to be succeeded by Fiona Martin, who lost her seat of Reid at the federal election last year; Gisele Kapterian, former staffer to Julie Bishop and Michaelia Cash; or Maria Kovacic, state party president and unsuccessful federal candidate for Parramatta. Dennis Shanahan of The Australian reported today that Payne has “told colleagues she does not intend to retire”.
• Lydia Lynch of The Australian reported yesterday on a “push within Queensland’s Liberal National Party to bring former Senator Amanda Stoker back into the fold”, with the suggestion that she might topple lower-profile incumbent Paul Scarr to gain the top position on the Senate ticket at the next election. With the second place on the ticket reserved for the Nationals, and no suggestion in the report that a position might become available in the lower house, the only other possibility would be for her to again take third place. This was a losing proposition for her at last year’s election and would also require her to depose an incumbent, in this case ideological fringe dweller Gerard Rennick.
TPOF
Yep, and it was a good example of what I meant, although mine is based on personal encounters (Kim Carr was a shocker…and I spent a full day campaigning with him).
TPOF says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:27 am
“Of course, the person who has had the most prominent reporting in the media on the voice is Dutton (and his questions to be answered). Who is white.”
Although in most cartoons he appears as ghoulish green or bilious blue.
LR @ 9.47
For me the Voice is a moral choice. And as others have noted, so was the decision on SSM.
_____________________________________________
I think the Voice is a much more clear-cut moral choice. For many Australians, inculcated with certain religious teachings from the day they were born, voting against marriage equality was the right moral choice. I fundamentally disagreed with that, but I recognised that the position was genuinely felt.
I cannot see a moral choice in opposing the voice, only self-serving and political opportunism.
TPOF @ #NaN Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 9:43 am
Yep. Which is why Lindsay Tanner isn’t much of a fixture as an elder statesman in Victorian Labor any more. As I can see it from here in NSW.
The Age 20/ 01
Prime Minister said the members of the Voice wouldn’t be paid, the report says they will,” he will say as one example of Albanese’s stumbling on the detail. The report proposed that co-chairs on the Voice be full-time paid roles, while other members are part-time with no recommendation that they be paid.
_____________________
Are they going to be paid or not Albo? and if so how much ?
That is a very, very important detail and will be crucial in deciding my vote.
Anyway back to the gold propecting. Beautiful up here in Creswick, just need to keep and eye out for the snakes.
zoomster @ #NaN Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 9:45 am
Well then I apologise. Because the ‘careful’ phrasing was a bit too opaque to me.
Codswallop.
zoomster @ #75 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 9:05 am
There is no necessary connection between Voice and Treaty. The final report of the referendum council discusses this very issue, and points out that some wanted Voice to be first, while others wanted Treaty or Truth first. Some thought Voice and Treaty could and should proceed simultaneously, because each would strengthen the other.
Now, there may indeed be good and practical reason to progress Voice first, and there may be an implied consensus in the ordering of the requests in the Uluru statement (although this is a bit of a stretch). But claiming it is necessary is simply not the case.
This is your interpretation, and your arguments are reminiscent of the type of self-serving logic made famous by “Yes, Minister”: We must do something. This is something. So we must do this.
MM @ 8.03
“Seriously if this referendum fails”
The opposition to the referendum will go beyond anything as yet exposed by the “anti everything” brigade and has only just begun.
The “your houses will be stolen from you” will be trumpeted throughout “wunderland”.
The ” your farms will be confiscated” will follow closely behind.
And not to mention ” the holiday houses”.
It has been a mistake to assume an outcome of a referendum, the build up to it, and the “on the ground” perception of the meaning of the voice.
The desperate Liberals have no choice but to make a “monumental issue” of the Voice as they really have little remaining in their coal fired batteries.
The Liberals are leaderless, and the right wing media has “stepped in” to fill the void” which is Dutton and the other assorted talentless clowns.
Most of the “assorted talentless clowns” will be joining Morrison in the “naughty corner” as soon as the “political crime commission” is established.
It is foolish for anyone involved in the Voice, the Treaty and Sovereignty to hope that the “racist underlay” across Australia will not be exposed and be ignited to defeat some change. Any change!
The lucky country has a “ways to go” before change is the only conclusion.
Discussion of “the Voice” has caused “a rambunctious cakefight” on PB.
The real world however will involve “live” ammunition.
I’d be having the Crime Commission up and going before attempting to get the Voice over the line.
The Voice Referendum isn’t about the details, Taylormade! Or, should I say, if whether or not the Voice to Parliament members are paid or not is what will decide your vote then that’s a very mercenary position to take wrt the referendum.
P1
I’m not going to have arguments with you which I’ve already had.
Say something new and I might be interested.
C@
The preface ‘in general’ means you recognise that what you’re about to say isn’t always true….
Every time Player One tries to get someone to take their bait we should just replay Bert’s comment, which I posted this morning. 😀
This one:
Bert,
Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 3:14 am
Comment #2361
I really wish that people would stop responding to the fuckwits that infest this place. Yeah they get up people’s nose’s but just ignore them and they’ll go away eventually.
I mean ignore, don’t engage, respond, quote or even acknowledge they even exist.
They keep returning because they know that they’ll get a bite.
Don’t give them one.
zoomster @ #NaN Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 10:03 am
It can also have the sense, to my mind, of meaning generalised. In general = in the generalised sense. Which, of course, doesn’t mean all, but a preponderance of.
NB I’m not spoiling for an argument here. Simply seeking clarity. 🙂
Taylormade says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:58 am
The Age 20/ 01
Prime Minister said the members of the Voice wouldn’t be paid, the report says they will,” he will say as one example of Albanese’s stumbling on the detail. The report proposed that co-chairs on the Voice be full-time paid roles, while other members are part-time with no recommendation that they be paid.
_____________________
Are they going to be paid or not Albo? and if so how much ?
That is a very, very important detail and will be crucial in deciding my vote.
Anyway back to the gold propecting. Beautiful up here in Creswick, just need to keep and eye out for the snakes.
———————————————————
LOL Taylormade
C@
And I’ve provided it.
For example – “In general, I don’t like curry, but the one made by…” “In general, I vote Labor, but….”
Of course, it’s moot. I’m talking about my own experience, which makes it perfectly possible that every SL member I’ve ever met was rude and I just encountered a bad sample.
But I purposely didn’t generalise because that hasn’t been the case, and I like to be truthful.
(I also dispute the ‘sweeping generalisations’ claim – often when I’ve been accused of this, it’s because I’ve been speaking within a certain context).
Fair enough, zoomster. No biggie. We all bring different perceptions to the written word. One Philosophy lecturer once said you can interpret a sentence in 56 different ways. I think, at the very least, in a few ways. 🙂
C@tmomma says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 10:00 am
The Voice Referendum isn’t about the details, Taylormade! Or, should I say, if whether or not the Voice to Parliament members are paid or not is what will decide your vote then that’s a very mercenary position to take wrt the referendum.
________________________________
Geez, C@t, you fell into the trap, unless you agree with the troll that the right to remuneration will be addressed in the Constitutional amendment (which it won’t).
The fact is that whether members of the Voice will be paid or not can change from one Parliamentary session to the other without any reference to the Constitutional provision.
”
C@tmommasays:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 8:31 am
Ven,
Are you back from Europe yet?
”
Yes. I came back with family on 19/01 (Thursday).
Thanks for asking. 🙂
I don’t understand how you could have an effective voice if the members of the voice aren’t paid and don’t have staff and offices where people for whom they are supposed to speak can tell them what they think.
If that is what first nations peoples want I’ll support it but it seems very performative and lacking in substance to me.
zoomster @ #111 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 10:01 am
What you mean is that you’re not going to have arguments that you have already lost.
And that’s fair enough. Just stop repeating the same nonsense that has already been refuted and hoping that no-one notices.
Germany kicks the can even further down the road on whether to allow Leopard 2 tanks to go to Ukraine:
“Germany has declined to take a decision on whether to give Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine at a special international summit, prompting frustration in Kyiv and a warning from Poland that lives could be lost because of hesitation in Berlin.
It had been hoped in Europe and the US that Germany would at least allow Leopards owned by countries such as Poland and Finland to be re-exported, but despite days of pleading, Berlin’s newly appointed defence minister said no final decision had been taken.
Instead, Boris Pistorius said on the sidelines of the 50-nation meeting at the Ramstein US air force base in Germany on Friday that he had asked his ministry to “undertake an examination of the stocks” of the tanks available.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/20/ukraine-germany-leopard-2-tanks-ramstein
To be fair to Germany, they have given Ukraine a lot of helpful stuff and also been very welcoming to Ukrainian refugees. But all of that is really just a band-aid. Ukraine has both the right and the need to clear its territory of hostiles and it is heavy armour that they will need to do that.
The “stock-taking” excuse given here by Pistorius is plainly ridiculous. Poland and Finland know exactly what they have and don’t need German bureaucrats to do their inventory for them.
WWP @ 10.23
The question of remuneration is totally irrelevant to what will be put in the Constitutional amendment.
It seems I cannot repeat this often enough. Also irrelevant is the fine detail of the structure of the Voice, etc, etc, etc.
The Constitutional amendment will only go to what is required by the Constitution – which is a voice pure and simple. Amplifying the diversionary questions created by and for the benefit of political opportunists plays into their hands.
P1
The fact you feel the need to recycle arguments indicates that you know they went nowhere the first time.
..and, of course, the more detail entrenched in the Constitution, the more restrictive it is.
A Voice will need to change over time. We can’t predict now what a Voice might need to be doing in fifty years time, let alone a hundred.
Insisting that the way a Voice operates must be enshrined in the Constitution means we knowingly restrict its ability to change when it needs to.
For example, at present we don’t have a Treaty (or Treaties). When we do, this may well transfer some of the powers the Voice had to other entities. If we have entrenched too much detail constitutionally, this wouldn’t be possible.
Bert: a voice of reason crying out in the night.
Ven @ #NaN Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 10:22 am
Welcome back, Ven. 🙂
Poland reminds Germany of the tragic human cost of its delay:
“ Zbigniew Rau, Poland’s foreign minister, said Ukrainian lives would be lost because of Germany’s reluctance to act. “Arming Ukraine in order to repel the Russian aggression is not some kind of decision-making exercise. Ukrainian blood is shed for real. This is the price of hesitation over Leopard deliveries. We need action, now,” he tweeted.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/20/ukraine-germany-leopard-2-tanks-ramstein
I’m adding “Ukrainian civilians killed since Ramstein” to my daily casualty updates. I think it’s wrong to say Scholz has blood on his hands or anything like that, because it is all on Putin’s, but Germany should still ponder this very deeply.
TPOF,
I know, I know. 😉
The Royal’s bullshit PR swings into action…
Prince William holds ‘heartbreaking’ call with Australian flood victims
Enough Already,
Poland should just send the damn tanks to Ukraine already! What’s Germany going to do? Invade Poland!?!
C@tmomma @ #131 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 10:44 am
Germany has no – but has given permission for other countries to send the Leopards. Seeking to verify this now… if correct then not all bad news it seems
I was talking to an old friend, colleague and union comrade who like me is now retired. She, for want of suitable anecdotes would stand up in the train carriage as our members travelled to union rallies in Sydney and loudly proclaim our presence and our mission, and was a stalwart of our Association, and would unashamedly swoon over the current NSWTF leader in Angelo’s early days as an organiser/executive if he came to speak at our dinner meetings.
To my surprise, she was of the ‘I want more detail’ brigade on the Voice. I must admit I was unprepared for this and ‘flubbed’ my response. I provided her with links to the various 200+ page reports et al but after some days of thought I realised that what I should have said was that I will not be voting against something which could set the recognition of indigenous people at the constitutional level and would not be able to live with the thought that, if the referendum fails, if I was a contributor to that failure.
Labor need to provide more than links to turgid documents on obscure web pages though. The National mood is positive towards the Voice, the average punter is not going to trawl websites for answers.
We need (sadly) some marketable quote/explanation that people, susceptible to Duttons’s double speak and gaslighting , can happily and comfortably pin their hopes and vote on.
“Player One says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 9:59 am
zoomster @ #75 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 9:05 am
Giving up on Voice means giving up on Truth and Treaty, because these need a Voice to progress them.
There is no necessary connection between Voice and Treaty.”
But if a relatively simple proposition like the Voice doesn’t pass, the chance for a far more complex Treaty to pass is absolutely nil!
On the other hand, if the Voice passes, the chances that sometime in the future we may have a Treaty can be improved.
Hence, those who support the Treaty, better give their full support to the Voice…. This is the conclusion that the Greens will reach in the next few days.
“Dog’s Brunch says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 10:54 am”
First, don’t forget that there are quite a few links (I provided some of them yesterday) to very clear and simple statements that clarify the basics behind this Voice referendum.
Second, the official campaign hasn’t started yet. Expect a solid series of TV ads and other media ads provided by the Government, that will thoroughly inform the voters about this referendum in all its details. In spite of that, according to YouGov, 46% of voters already support the Yes option, (with 24% being undecided)!!! Oh, and btw, expect Dutton and the Coalition to protest against those ads, accusing them of being “pro-yes propaganda delivered at taxpayers’ expense… blah, blah” (you know the drill).
zoomster says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 10:01 am
P1
I’m not going to have arguments with you which I’ve already had.
Say something new and I might be interested.
_______________________________________
The right-wing dishonest opposition rule no. 1 is to pose the same questions or arguments time and again, claiming they have not been answered when they have been answered time and again.
There are certain posters here who do not actually stop to consider the answers given because that is not what they are here for. They are here just to flood us with their own, often bizarre, views.
And to abuse us while claiming they are victims of abuse.
Apparently this is “woke”
https://i.postimg.cc/pdBQ0ttc/op-S95h-MAo-JSe-Lv-W9-Pv-YMTF-970-80-jpeg.webp
Australia needs one of this guy in each state:
https://youtu.be/rigH9RJrUD8
Or this
https://postimg.cc/1gfNt2XD
Postimages.org doesn’t seem to be working like it used to. Scratches head…
Alposays:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 8:21 am
“Boerwar says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 8:11 am
The Greens are all over the place on the Voice. They are adding to the confusion and to the doubt. Bandt is, quite simply, completely absent. Zero leadership on the Voice – except to undermine it.”
I am certainly not prepared to demonise the entire Greens party (which would be unfair) only because there is Lidia Thorpe and some other so-called BlakGreens who seem to be against the Yes vote for completely ridiculous reasons, thus making them bestest of friends of the racist Coalition (go and figure…). I am more than confident that most Greens will vote for the Yes option, and some highly regarded members of the Greens leadership are speaking out in favour of the Voice too. But I fully agree with you about the very poor display of leadership shown by Bandt.
——————————————————————————
The Green’s structure and where they sit on the spectrum of Australian politics makes them vulnerable to infiltration attempts from more radical extremist activist groups and causes who view the Greens as an easy vehicle with which to gain power. We saw that a few years ago when the ‘Left Renewal’ faction attempted to recruit extremist Leninist and Trotskyist types into the party, undermine Di Natale and stage a takeover. We see it now with Thorpe and her “BlakGreens” supporters and followers seeking to co-opt the broader party for their own niche agenda. I do have some sympathy for the Greens movement as a whole because it is difficult to deal with or prevent these things from happening.
In regards to Bandt’s complete lack of leadership, it is clear that he is missing in action so that he is not questioned about the Voice.
Hmm. Perhaps appending the usual, hashtag image dot jpg might work.
Testing.
Thanks Late Riser.
Don’t normally have to do that.
Cheers
“S. Simpson says:
Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 11:11 am
….The Green’s structure and where they sit on the spectrum of Australian politics makes them vulnerable to infiltration attempts from more radical extremist activist groups and causes. We saw that a few years ago when the ‘Left Renewal’ faction attempted to recruit extremist Leninist and Trotskyist types into the party, undermine Di Natale and stage a takeover. We see it now with Thorpe and her “BlakGreens” supporters and followers seeking to co-opt the broader party for the own niche agenda. I do have sympathy for the Greens movement as a whole because it is difficult to deal with or prevent these things from happening.”
Good post, S. Simpson! I agree, and that’s why on this Voice issue I have been constructive towards the Greens. I know that there are very good, solid and positive progressives in that party, and they should be helped against the disruptive forces of fringe dwellers. Moreover, those disruptive forces are always supported by the Liberals from the outside… no need to “wonder” why, it’s pretty clear.
Ultimately, I am confident that the Greens will support the Yes vote at the Voice referendum.
I copied the image from twitter and then uploaded to postimages. Wonder if that’s why. Anyway no biggie.
🙂
Aqualung @ #143 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 10:16 am
I noticed the image ended with “webp”, and maybe that confuses WordPress.
Aqualung @ #NaN Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 11:18 am
You don’t have to go from Twitter via post image. Just Copy the image address on Twitter, paste it here and add hashtagimagedotjpg. It will appear.
Oh, and btw, expect Dutton and the Coalition to protest against those ads, accusing them of being “pro-yes propaganda delivered at taxpayers’ expense… blah, blah” (you know the drill).
Abso-bleeding-lutely! Just as well we are hip to the jive of these people. 🙂
Late Riser @ #146 Saturday, January 21st, 2023 – 11:19 am
I took that bit off and it didn’t work at all so I was on the right track then. I’d forgotten about the #images thing.
Anyway the point was the people with Brain Damage that have chosen to declare a 50 year old reimagined album cover imsge as woke!
zoomster at 9.50 am
You may be interested in a recent book: The Australian History Industry (eds Ashton and Hamilton). Has 22 chapters. Only 4 have some discussion of Indigenous history beyond a passing reference. There is one reference to the Uluru Statement in ch 9 by Julia Hirst and Peter Read, but no entry in the index. There is little or no comparative dimension: e.g. no reference to NZ in index. There is no reference in the book to native title or Mabo, quite remarkable 30 years on from 1992, although there are a couple of pages at the end of the last chapter about Indigenous Australian history in films.
At p 145 Hurst and Read write: “the history of Australia is one that continues to make invisible, erase and contain Aboriginal people’s lives and thus control their stories via the structures of Settler Colonialism that choose what histories to include and what histories to leave behind. Ultimately, as Ann Curthoys has commented, the rest of Australian history can move on ‘without them’.” (in Beckett & Hinkson, Appreciation of Difference, p 247).