The latest Morgan face-to-face poll is unchanged from the previous fortnight’s result in every significant particular: Labor leads 54-46 on two-party preferred from primary votes of 43 per cent for Labor, 40 per cent for the Coalition and 10.5 per cent for the Greens. The poll encompasses two weekends’ worth of Roy Morgan’s routine face-to-face surveys, encompassing a sample of 1804.
Frank, what we have to do is change the views of the public by discussing and debating with the public using various political mediums. That was what was done with the vote for non land-owners, that was what was done for the vote for women, that was what was done for Aboriginies to have voting rights, and that is what is being done for homosexual marriage.
We must not think that public opinion is immovable. We must move into the public domain and change the views of the people, one by one, using arguments that convince different types of people. And by smart messaging and an appeal to the heart, human rights will win.
Bonwyn Pike,Vic.Ed.Minister,has declined to allow humanist/rationalist and atheist groups to offer a humanist”Ethics: course in state schools where presently religious groups offer their programs…as situation like that in NSW
They are quite outraged and are meeting soon to consider some form of intervention into the campaign in Pike’s Melbourne electorate,where many agnostic voters might be similarly annoyed and ,may then decide to help the Greens in some ways.
[Tom the first and bestPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Permalink895
Evidence?
The polls say a significant majority (yes majority not plurality) support marriage equality and there is also a significant undecided element.
]
Read the daily press and listen to ALL talkback shows and educate yourself – you’ll be in for a rude shock.
Confessions @ # 893
“Did the East Timor refugee processing center come out of the National Conference? How about ‘cash for clunkers’? What about the dreadful Citizens Assembly?
Did any of these ‘policies’ go through National Conference? .”
The “policies” mentioned above are not really policies. They are methods of enforcing/applying/implementing the policies of the Government.
This argument by confessions is a rather simplistic and shallow one.
Frank,
In trying to find something we can all agree on, did you see my post last night (#551) about drilling for oil off Rottnest?
I’d like to see your views, and others from the Golden West (my home state, but not where I live now) as well.
[Not EVERY policy brought up at Election is decided at the National Conffernce]
Except you told us that the Prime Minister said “that if you want to change Party policy you propose it via the National Conference”. Who is right: you or the PM? If Citizens gabfest was party policy, which National Conference approved it as such?
And hint: it isn’t twisting your words when they are quoted back at you verbatim.
@ Frank
Yes the right would start a scare campaign with 2gb spruiking that hordes of marauding paedophiles would be in our suburbs. The Greens and Labor would also be accused of pushing their devient agenda in our schools.
[jlg34Posted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:28 pm | PermalinkFrank, what we have to do is change the views of the public by discussing and debating with the public using various political mediums. That was what was done with the vote for non land-owners, that was what was done for the vote for women, that was what was done for Aboriginies to have voting rights, and that is what is being done for homosexual marriage.
We must not think that public opinion is immovable. We must move into the public domain and change the views of the people, one by one, using arguments that convince different types of people. And by smart messaging and an appeal to the heart, human rights will win
]
You obviously didn’t read my posts properly – All I’ve said is the diffucluty of winning people in 2GB/Today tonight land who DO have immovable views on the subject.
You think the general public is like Pollbludger and gnerally on the same page.
Well go out in the suburbs outside Kmart etc and get ready for a rude shock.
Bogans DO mirror 2GB.
[whateverpediaPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:31 pm | PermalinkFrank,
In trying to find something we can all agree on, did you see my post last night (#551) about drilling for oil off Rottnest?
I’d like to see your views, and others from the Golden West (my home state, but not where I live now) as well.
]
Considering Rottnest is part of Fremantle and the local member is now well under the KLib’s spell, I’m surprised that she is VERY silent on this issue.
I reckon it stinks, though I’m not surprised.
[RatsarsPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:31 pm | PermalinkConfessions @ # 893
“Did the East Timor refugee processing center come out of the National Conference? How about ‘cash for clunkers’? What about the dreadful Citizens Assembly?
Did any of these ‘policies’ go through National Conference? .”
The “policies” mentioned above are not really policies. They are methods of enforcing/applying/implementing the policies of the Government.
This argument by confessions is a rather simplistic and shallow one.
]
Agreed, as is her 906.
[All I’ve said is the diffucluty of winning people in 2GB/Today tonight land]
I would argue (and am happy to be proved wrong) that 2GB and TT land do not represent a majority of Australians.
Are we really ceding political leadership to the halfwits who represent 2GB and TT listeners/viewers?
Paul_J @ 900
The people who have managed to stockpile huge slabes of the world’s wealth NEVER feel guilty about anything. 😡
A definition of marriage.
“When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition until death do them part.” [G.B. Shaw]
I don’t say I agree but it is worth thinking about.
[Paul_JPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:33 pm | Permalink@ Frank
Yes the right would start a scare campaign with 2gb spruiking that hordes of marauding paedophiles would be in our suburbs. The Greens and Labor would also be accused of pushing their devient agenda in our schools.
]
Yup.
As for Tom for some examples on Today tonight/A Current Affair – remember the My Two Mums outrage over Play School ? Gay couples appearing on Reality TV shows – storylines from soapies covering same sex relationships ??
Some lead VERY sheltered lives when it comes to our commercial media.
[confessionsPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:39 pm | PermalinkAll I’ve said is the diffucluty of winning people in 2GB/Today tonight land
I would argue (and am happy to be proved wrong) that 2GB and TT land do not represent a majority of Australians.
Are we really ceding political leadership to the halfwits who represent 2GB and TT listeners/viewers?
]
Yes, look at Tony Abbott’s and the Lib’s election campaign and look at how close he came to winning.
There is your answer.
The Sunday Times report said the lease was 10km not just from Rottnest, but “Perth’s northern beaches, including Scarborough, North Beach and Hillarys”. But the paper obviously thought it was Rottnest that would most wring the heart.
Actually the first two weeks of the federal campaign were hopeless and as I recall a number of ALP supporters took the time to argue strongly that the campaign was hopeless.
I recall the likes of Grog and others pointing out, WTF were the ALP not driving hom the economic success of avoiding a recession and connecting the many positive infrastructure projects to that success.
Now if all ALP supporters had just sat back and nodded that Jules had nice red hair and Tone was being Tone then today we would have a Liberal Government.
th Marriage Act does not discrim on gender at all
marriage act says specifically what marriage is
and that is of a man and a women
try and run that discrim of genders arguement thru anti discrim bodys and it would not get past first base
Next peoples will be arguing that 3 lesbians can jointly marry and if they cannt , it is a human rites issue of there rites
Many bogan suburbs vote for the ALP.
[mexicanbeemerPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:53 pm | PermalinkMany bogan suburbs vote for the ALP.
]
Not the Fly in Fly Out Cashed up variety.
No Ron, that is a logical fallacy. No such slipper slope applies. No-one is arguing for that and no one will be arguing for that, at real, not seriously.
[917 mexicanbeemerPosted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:51 pm | PermalinkActually the first two weeks of the federal campaign were hopeless and as I recall a number of ALP supporters took the time to argue strongly that the campaign was hopeless.
I recall the likes of Grog and others pointing out, WTF were the ALP not driving hom the economic success of avoiding a recession and connecting the many positive infrastructure projects to that success.
Now if all ALP supporters had just sat back and nodded that Jules had nice red hair and Tone was being Tone then today we would have a Liberal Government
]
And note at the time I pointed out that the Govt were being hamstrung by the RBA decion, and that such a message would’ve backfired had there been a Rate rise.
People have selective memory as per usual.
[jlg34Posted Sunday, November 7, 2010 at 11:58 pm | PermalinkNo Ron, that is a logical fallacy. No such slipper slope applies. No-one is arguing for that and no one will be arguing for that, at real, not seriously
]
You wanna bet – what about the Human Rights of those who want to marry their pets ?? Their motorbike ??
Confessions @ # 911
“Are we really ceding political leadership to the halfwits who represent 2GB and TT listeners/viewers?”
You only have to look at the rubbish that is being published by the MSM concerning what some idiots are saying in SA & WA about the refugee centres. It is extremely difficult for ppls to separate fact from fiction when this sort of rubbish is all over the MSM.
It is also difficult when we have an Opposition and an a Leader of the Opposition that will shamelessly cause such rubbish to be published/broadcast
If any political party is to fight and overcome such idiocy then it has to develop methods to fight such things.
I don’t think that one is ceding political leadership to these idiots if one takes into account their reaction to any government policy initiative.
That is one thing that Labor has not done well as is displayed by the AS issue and the Mining Profit Tax as two example.
Both were/are good policies but the overtop reaction of those apposed eg the 2GB crowd) have made them possible liabilities for the Government.
Frank – That is a fair point but I would maintain that there has never been a more economically successful federal ALP Government and on that bases it deserved a second term.
[marriage act says specifically what marriage is
and that is of a man and a women]
Only since the Marriage Act Amendment Act 2004. Prior to that “marriage” was undefined in the Act itself.
[th Marriage Act does not discrim on gender at all]
Umm, can 2 women legally marry under Australian law? No? How about two men?
The law as it stands discriminates on the basis of gender. It proscribes that only 2 people of certain sex can legally marry. That’s discrimination.
Good grief Frank, now there is a slippery slope. I don’t think so. There are a few oddities in every generation but their condition (and it is a condition) would hardly be taken up by the rest of the public over generations, like other causes.
ratsars @ 924: My comment is in response to Frank, who seems to think 2GB listeners are what it’s all about.
[confessionsPosted Monday, November 8, 2010 at 12:15 am | Permalinkratsars @ 924: My comment is in response to Frank, who seems to think 2GB listeners are what it’s all about.
]
I’m saying that 2GB etc are a major factor determining political policy.
Study by Clive Hamilton below
4. Demographic characteristics of Jones’ listeners
This study investigates the demographic and attitudinal characteristics of Alan Jones
listeners using data from Roy Morgan Research. The data were collected across
Australia from 24,718 respondents aged 14 and over during the period October 2003
to September 2004.3 The Alan Jones breakfast show is on air from 5.30 am to 10.00
am weekdays. The Roy Morgan data are split according to time slots; accordingly,
this study focuses on people who listen to 2GB radio between 5.30 am and 9.00 am.
A large majority of Jones’ listeners are older Australians – 68 per cent are over 50
years of age compared to 37 percent for the entire population over 14. Thirty five per
cent of Jones’ listeners are over 65 years compared to 15 per cent for the whole
population over 14. Thirty-nine per cent are retired compared to 18 per cent of the
population over 14. On the other hand, while 37 per cent of Australians over 14 are
aged 14-34, only around 7 per cent of Jones’ listeners fall into this group. Jones has
virtually no direct impact on younger voters.
There are slightly more males among Jones’ listeners than females (54 per cent versus
46 per cent).
By income level, Jones’ listeners tend to be concentrated in two groups – pensioners
and others with around average incomes.
In terms of religious affiliation, Jones’ listeners are substantially more likely than the
average to identify with the Anglican Church (32 per cent compared to 22 per cent for
all those over 14) and the Catholic Church (30 per cent compared to 23 per cent).
Jones’ listeners are more likely to go to church or their place of worship on a regular
basis than other Australians (26 per cent compared to 18 per cent). On the other hand,
while 26 per cent of the population over 14 say they have no religious affiliation, only
10 per cent of Jones’ audience says the same.
5. Attitudes of Jones’ listeners
An examination of social attitudes covered by Roy Morgan Research data makes it
very apparent that Jones listeners are both morally more conservative and much more
concerned about crime and security than other Australians. Their social attitudes are
highly consistent with many of the themes that Jones stresses in his on-air editorials.
More often than not, the comments of Jones on issues ranging from societal values to
the performance of the Federal Government replicate the attitudes of his listeners.
931
So Jones`s listeners are not a representative sample of the general population. My memory tells me that these are not the most politically marginal of demographics either. Jones is thus not a necessary backer for ALP Government`s policies if they are being sensible.
[jlg34Posted Monday, November 8, 2010 at 12:19 am | PermalinkStudy by Clive Hamilton below
4. Demographic characteristics of Jones’ listeners
This study investigates the demographic and attitudinal characteristics of Alan Jones
listeners using data from Roy Morgan Research. The data were collected across
Australia from 24,718 respondents aged 14 and over during the period October 2003
to September 2004.3 The Alan Jones breakfast show is on air from 5.30 am to 10.00
am weekdays. The Roy Morgan data are split according to time slots; accordingly,
this study focuses on people who listen to 2GB radio between 5.30 am and 9.00 am.
A large majority of Jones’ listeners are older Australians – 68 per cent are over 50
years of age compared to 37 percent for the entire population over 14. Thirty five per
cent of Jones’ listeners are over 65 years compared to 15 per cent for the whole
population over 14. Thirty-nine per cent are retired compared to 18 per cent of the
population over 14. On the other hand, while 37 per cent of Australians over 14 are
aged 14-34, only around 7 per cent of Jones’ listeners fall into this group. Jones has
virtually no direct impact on younger voters.
There are slightly more males among Jones’ listeners than females (54 per cent versus
46 per cent).
By income level, Jones’ listeners tend to be concentrated in two groups – pensioners
and others with around average incomes.
In terms of religious affiliation, Jones’ listeners are substantially more likely than the
average to identify with the Anglican Church (32 per cent compared to 22 per cent for
all those over 14) and the Catholic Church (30 per cent compared to 23 per cent).
Jones’ listeners are more likely to go to church or their place of worship on a regular
basis than other Australians (26 per cent compared to 18 per cent). On the other hand,
while 26 per cent of the population over 14 say they have no religious affiliation, only
10 per cent of Jones’ audience says the same.
5. Attitudes of Jones’ listeners
An examination of social attitudes covered by Roy Morgan Research data makes it
very apparent that Jones listeners are both morally more conservative and much more
concerned about crime and security than other Australians. Their social attitudes are
highly consistent with many of the themes that Jones stresses in his on-air editorials.
More often than not, the comments of Jones on issues ranging from societal values to
the performance of the Federal Government replicate the attitudes of his listeners.
]
2GB is more than just Alan Jones – try the likes of Ray Hadley Chris Smith, Scott Morrison etc – they attract Tradies, Truck drivers, Taxi Drivers etc.
Don’t Underestimate the likes of 2GB, 2SM, 3AW, MTR, 4BC and 6PR and their political influence.
[Tom the first and bestPosted Monday, November 8, 2010 at 12:26 am | Permalink931
So Jones`s listeners are not a representative sample of the general population. My memory tells me that these are not the most politically marginal of demographics either. Jones is thus not a necessary backer for ALP Government`s policies if they are being sensible.
]
See my previous response – 3CR and Green Left Weekly do not win you elections.
Support for marriage being for a man and women is for many reasons incl cultural , community standards , kids , religous historical and peer pathway etc , and clearly is neither just a religous issue nor confined to particular income groups that vote labor
th only people confused about what ‘marriage’ is is th gay lobby , trying cynically to twist what it is not Marriage is an instituton of a man and a women
trying to turn pro gay marriage itself into being a human rites isssue will be treated ritely as laughable
And then trying to re-define that is gender discrim is absurb again , failing to understand what marriage is
I repeat using this lame pro gay marriage arguement of human rites , then why should not 3 lesbians jointly marry , otherwise youse will say its an abuse of THERE human rites
(what i also find suss about ‘Agenda’ is lack of interst in my earlier point of practicol discrim responisibiliy & rites issues like tax that hav faced hetro defacto’s & gays that should be addrssed but guess that does not fit narative)
[I repeat using this lame pro gay marriage arguement of human rites , then why should not 3 lesbians jointly marry , otherwise youse will say its an abuse of THERE human rites]
Just as lame as using a slippery slope argument.
And no, I am not getting involved. My thoughts on this subject are known, and I do not want to sink into the quagmire.
what you reely mean but aint prepared to say , is that 3 lesbians (wishing to jointly marry) CAN say say THERE human rites is being abused under current Law
unless you arguing there hav no rite to jointly marry , and I mean you cannt hav it both ways
I’m simply exposing th stupidity of trying redefine Marriage from what it is , which is between a man and a women
by saying once one lamely redefines that then dont complain when any combuiination of” marriages” is put up to expose gay marriage human rites arguement as ilogical
(BTW gay marriage would fail under th Constit anyway given marriage under Marriage Act as defined is consistent to Constit
and my eg has an a reel eg
and Jack Thompson had 2 “wifes” openly and concurrently , altern nites in bed , so is his human rites being abused by not allowing him to actualy marry them concurrently
so your slippery slope arguemnet was also false
Confessions @ 880,
[Yep, as I suspected. Why should anyone take your view seriously? You are no better than Pegasus, Adam, GP or Mod Lib when it comes to Party attachment – you simply adhere to whatever the party says with no clear logic or reason in your rationalisation.]
I hope you’re talking about that Labor hack Psephos (Adam) who used to be on here but not unsurprisingly disappeared after Labor’s election campaign debacle and not myself. I’ve never been a member of a political party and never will. Unlike some on here I’m no goose-stepping party hack.
I used to routinely vote Labor until they decided to become a centre-right party and gave up on them after the disappoinment of the Rudd/Gillard government. While no political party suits me perfectly I now find the Greens closest to my political ideals.
[I hope you’re talking about that Labor hack Psephos (Adam) who used to be on here but not unsurprisingly disappeared after Labor’s election campaign debacle and not myself. ]
Actually he has been on here since the election. True, he has been on less frequently. But that can be said about a lot of the “regulars.” It’s what happens when an election is recently concluded.
Adam
Ruawake demolished you on a few issues of fact , so Greens is an ideal party for you , tho your past labor voting “claims” wuld mean you voted for Hawke/Keating , reely
As for your cheap shot at Adam behind his back w/o asking why , well he’s been back and said why his duties vs PB would mean less blogging
Actually Ron, Ruawake like Frank made a fool of himself/herself as I and a Greens person (Radguy?) pointed out, unfortunately those posts got deleted.
HaveAchat. Fiz. Well said. And done.
I don’t bother to contact my local Fed, that being the useless Southcott. Do contact my local State, that being the worthy Chloe Fox of Boothby.
Sometimes it goes nowhere, in a way, but Chloe is at least informed of where certain of her electorate stands on particular issues. Chloe makes it her business to personally return every single call. So I get to have my chat, too.
And the moment arrives. Inverbrackie cum Woodside. State meets Feds.
This issue is not the sole province of Mayo.
As a South Aussie, I am pleased to think that we could actually do something positive for the asylum seekers. Not lock them up in the desert or wherever.
The embrace of the kind Australians are capable of demonstrating will win out.
It will be fine. Hopefully we will rally for them. I am sure we can and will.
And one day, one or some of these people will return the favour.
It happens that I know a certain Le Tu Thai, who as a very young boat person, seeking asylum, fled Vietnam to find himself in Adelaide. Courtesy Malcolm Fraser.
Le started some of his work direction in the kitchen of a highly regarded prominent chef. Himself an emigre. French.
Le threw himself into the task of dishwasher, showed himself to be not merely hardworking but absorbed, enthralled by and then devoted to the art of cooking.
He became a chef; launching his own hugely successful Adelaide city restaurant.
Subsequently undertaking a new venture. Where he delivers to this day an acclaimed dining experience. A man of his own making, from extreme hardship.
Where a certain now Ambassador continues to spend part of our fortune. Not only on himself, but on dignitaries from around the world. Including some from Timor Este.
The now local member would very likely have visited. Not merely out of courtesy.
Le’s restaurant is in Bridgewater. A glance at a map will tell you that Woodside and Inverbrackie are a mere few kilometres away.
As I pointed out some moons ago, could be a little tricky.
Pollies bashing asylum seekers. In the Electorate of Mayo.
Adam
that William , our Great Leeder deleted your posts and Radguys , another Green , should give you some hint
irespective I did see what Ruawake did say vs your claims , and Ru did demolish your view , and to now suggest Ru made a fool of himself is an uncredible comment
Excuse you Ron, ALL of the posts got deleted because Frank spat the dummy and also William had a go at Frank not me or the other guy. Clearly you didn’t see the exchange so with all due respect.
Adam
i saw initial base points of dis agree with you and Ruawake
I beleived Ru adequate indicated why your view was false based
Yes I didn’t see Willams did deletes , and never said I had Adam !
you was one that told me about deletes !
nor I see balanse of your exchange as i was gone , but saw enuf for my opinion that Ru correct
What you is still saying is you is rite & Ru made a fool of himself , and to which i said thats an uncredible comment
This is a bit rich coming from Greg Sheridan. He admitted himself that he was one of cheer leaders that derided Rudd’s EAS as a “delusion of grandeur”.
[Clinton was also determined that Australians understand Rudd’s personal role in the development of Asian institutions, and the critical question of the US’s participation in them.
It is the fashion in this country to deride Rudd’s Asia-Pacific Community concept, but Clinton made it abundantly clear that Rudd’s thinking had been a powerful factor in the US joining the East Asia Summit.
And the EAS, with the US President a key member, is really Rudd’s APC by another name.]
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/united-approach-to-china-question/story-e6frg6zo-1225949114778
The Pillow Talk hits the Fibs, dripping with water torture:
[There is another delicate staffing issue involving Loughnane. His wife, Peta Credlin, is chief of staff to Abbott, a post she has also held for previous opposition leaders Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnbull.
There are plenty of power couples in politics but this is one that has caused considerable angst among Liberals. It has nothing to do with Credlin’s ability to do the job and everything to do with whether people felt constrained about speaking freely. Yabsley felt he could neither speak openly to Loughnane about the leader’s office, nor did he feel able to speak candidly to the leader’s office if he had a complaint about the organisation or Loughnane.
He has told friends he rang Loughnane one day to discuss a matter involving the leader’s office that was troubling him. He was gobsmacked when Loughnane finished the conversation by telling him: “I’ll tell Peta when she gets out of the shower.”]
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/liberal-dose-of-angst/story-e6frg6zo-1225949108502
our Julia goes overseas and well to according to some didnt do much,
an american lady comes here and gee no Holiday for her cracking pace.
[The Finnigans
Posted Monday, November 8, 2010 at 7:09 am | Permalink
This is a bit rich coming from Greg Sheridan. He admitted himself that he was one of cheer leaders that derided Rudd’s EAS as a “delusion of grandeur”.]
something tells me we need Mrs. Clinton to come here more often and expolains things
to the msm