Analysis and discussion of elections and opinion polls in Australia
US election minus 48 days
A new thread for discussion of matters American, as the polls return to level pegging following the Republicans’ convention bounce.
Author: William Bowe
William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, has existed in one form or another since 2004, and is one of the most heavily trafficked websites on Australian politics.
View all posts by William Bowe
[Paul, i think the only problem with what your saying is that all the polling suggests that
a) the economy is the biggest issue;
b) the majority blame the republicans for the mess; and
c) the majority of those polled say they trust the dems to fix it more than they do the repubs.]
Never let the facts get in the way of anything eh? 😉
Thomas Paine(Definately not the same man who stood up for American independence against the British Empire in the late 1700’s) your comments ignore the fact that the Democrats have chosen a light weight candidate and all the Liberal talk of how historic the occasion it presents is laughable. The candidate is not a descendant of Slavery in the United States he is a one generation american whose father was from the British colony of East Africa(Kenya). The corruption around his circles in Chicago would make what you’ve stated about Wall Street pale into insignificance. McCain and Palin will win because they can reach out to Heartland America which is tired of such rubbish as man made climate changed as exposed by trendy Liberals like Al Gore. As for Yo ho ho at this point in time I think the Democrats couldn’t run a bath.
340,
If Dole goes in NC, serves her right. She was a blowin in much the same way that Hillary blew into NY from Arkansas. [Not implying here at all that Hillary hasn’t represented and will represent people of NY well, just that the possibility exists that it could be the opposite end of the spectrum when you seek elected office in an area that you aren’t intimately familiar with]. If Dole loses, watch for her to immediately move back to her roots in Kansas …….
PN
Sadly your argument is based in faith not facts. About 85% of Americans are convinced CC is happening. And it’s a big winner for Obama. 😀
[Almost two-thirds, 62 percent, of all U.S. adults believe it is important that the next President of the United States initiates strong action to address climate change soon after taking office.]
Paul, just saying that Obama is a lightweight candidate doesn’t make it true. He beat Clinton for the Democrat candidacy in probably one of the tightest and no-holds-barred races at that level for a long time. Your statement simply bears no relationship to reality.
Diogenes watch out also for the Canadian Election on October 15 , If the Conservative Party wins Harper will wind back all the CC issues initiated by the previous Liberal Government and then in November McCain wins the US all of North America will be a CC free zone and only Europe and little Australia will believe in such clap trap.
Did you folks know that on 23 September 2004, the Intrade markets were only two States out from the actual election results: Wisconsin and New Mexico.
The polls on the other hand….
Paul – are you predicting this with the same certainty that you predicted a Nats win in Lyne?
I’m interested to see what happens if Harper and Obama win. With Canada a ‘CC free zone’ but America not, it’ll make for some very interesting weather around Michigan, Minnesota etc… 😛
And Socrates 350 Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen would have made a fine Prime-Minister had not all the Australian establishment brick walls prevented him in such a real corrupt fashion. Afterall had it happened we would like the UK, USA and Canada had a real Conservative party in charge.
heh!
[And Socrates 350 Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen would have made a fine Prime-Minister had not all the Australian establishment brick walls prevented him in such a real corrupt fashion]
Ok, now it’s clear you’re just a troll
Paul Nash
“he corruption around his circles in Chicago would make what you’ve stated about Wall Street pale into insignificance”
Presume you ar not referring to
William Ayers th worst terrorist in US history (on FBI top 10 list for 10 years) who Obama first went to to start his career & worked under Ayers in Ayers foundation
Rezko convicted on Federal corruption charges of illinois public officials direcly under th Governor (Obama’s 17 year mate , who Obama worked for Rezko who for 10 years raised money for Obama & headed Obama’ committeee
Nadmi Auchi – Iraqi Billionaire swindler who helped himself to money from the Food for Oil program and coneection to Obama’s Chicago mansion.
Or other associates
Rashid Khalidi former PLO spokesman and supporter of terrorism against Israel.
Jeremiah Wright whaco anti American preacher
James Meeks a rabid racist,& anti-American preacher
Louis Farrakhan of th Nation of Islam. a renowned racist, anti-American, voracious Anti-Semite and homophobe
Which of these individuals are the ‘clean’ ones?
Any facts and figures Paul to back up your statements? Any at all?
Roflol! This is getting like FoxNooz: The O’Ronnly Factor – where silliness is no obstacle to discussion.
Ron
You really have excelled yourself.
[William Ayers th worst terrorist in US history]
And I thought it was Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. I must have missed all those 168+ people Ayers blew up.
Possum fox news is the only fair and balanced media compared with the established Liberal media accross the USA.
pedantic , one of worst terorists in US history
th “O’Possum Factor” where elitist intellegentsia is a substitute for denying reality
The Latino vote, which is up to 10% is favouring Obama 2:1. A big help in CO, NV and NM.
Data can be reality have you checked the latest Rasmussen poll in the states it clearly shows that McCain is ahead in two key battleground states Ohio and Florida.
And they both have big electoral college votes I think in 1976 Carter took Florida which helped him overcome Ford its looking deciding different this time around. The only similiarity is stagflation and high oil prices thats the 70s flavour. And we all know interesting times happened in the 70s don’t we possum ah la 1975
PN
What is your opinion of the accuracy of the different US polls? Which ones do you think are the most reliable and have the best past prediction records? Why don’t you educate Poss and the rest of us so we can learn from your experience.
Reality is that every measure has Obama winning. He’s winning the national polls, intrade, every betting market, electoral-vote, pollster, 538 and electionprojection.
Paul – I see every poll, everyday
The latest OH poll is an Insider Advantage poll showing a 46 a piece tie while the latest Ras has McCain by 4, while the latest FL poll is an NBC News/Mason-Dixon jobbie reading 47/45 to Obama with the latest Ras having McCain by 5.
And that pretty much shows the mess that US polling is at the moment.
Intrade has the best record – having only 2 states wrong as a prediction on 23rd Sep 2004. If you want to see the Intrade road to the Whitehouse for each candidate it’s here:
You refer to “elitist liberals” and the need for “true conservatives”. I suppose the latter are much easier to find than truthful conservatives. 🙂
Still, what do you mean to be “elitist”? Do you mean elite as in intellect and achievement, or as in wealth and power? So is Richard Dawkins an elite? or George Bush?
Indeed, what do you mean by liberals and conservatives? You are obviously an expert in US history so please inform me which of the following famous American political figures were true conservatives and which were elitist liberals? Which ones called themselves liberals?
Thomas Paine
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
James Maddison
Benjamin Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Hope you can enlighten an old philosopher who barely knows what he doesn’t know.
Thanks Poss, very nice intrade analysis. Have you looked much at the volatility of Intrade in elections past? Just wondering whether the conventions or debates historically provide much movement…
Thanks Poss, I found that Intrade link much more reliable than PN’s advice. Appreciate teh info on their reliability too. Curious the only US poll he could name was one which showed MccCain in front.
Seriously, from here the US either sorts out their economic problems at the expense of $800 Billion of taxpayers money, or goes into recession, or both. Most of this was due to problems the Republicans failed to stop, and actually withdrew resources from the relevant regulators. I don’t see how they can win in Novemer in any of those cases.
Dario – the conventions sent the Intrade markets a bit berko last year as well, but after a couple of weeks it was back to business as usual (which looks like what is happening this year). The debates didnt really do much – a few days worth of movement in a few states, but then back to the longer term trends that each state was showing before the debates. If this year is like 2004, as we approach the election, some of those 60% probabilities will start to move into 70, then the 80% – which really takes them completely out of the game.
Yeah, I figured the conventions would be the more likely to shake things up… if their debates are anything like ours then they are more likely to put everyone to sleep than change votes or perceptions about the state of play.
Dario
The movement after the conventions is very predictable and happened almost exactly as expected. It has now ended. It’s harder to be definitive about the debates, because some will say X won and others will say Y won (whereas the party holding the convention obviously wins it’s own “debate”). From what I’ve read, the debates actually NEVER change anything (except maybe when JFK beat Nixon). Everyone knows the Democrat candidate will be more intelligent and articulate, whereas the Republican will make simplistic appeals to character and patriotism.
Socrates Liberals are those that believe in the writings of John Stuart Mill and Conservatives the writings of Edmund Burke. In relation to the United States its somewhat blurred particularly in its first 100 years of Nationhood. The first two political parties were the Federalists basically formed in the Northern States of the Original 13 and the Democratic-Republican Party of the South luckily for the US both of these parties were Conservative with differences in the scope of how big the Federal Government should be. Later on the Federalists disappeared following the War of 1812 and America had a very stable period except in the 1840s when they flirted with the Whigs(a Pure Liberal Party) like the Whigs in the UK. The Republican Party formed prior to the Civil War due to a split in the Democratic-Republican Party over slavery then it just became the Democratic Party. I know the US was lucky that parties were conservative with the later being controlled by white southern Democrats.
Following Johnsons civil rights bills southern states drifted to the Republican Party and Democrats gained Republican stronghold states in the North and as a result became Liberal.
New ABC/Washington Post poll – Obama/McCain 52/43
Ouch!
Whoah!!!
Surprise Surprise a poll conducted jointly with a newspaper that started the second biggest witchhunt in world history.
The Salem witch trials?
Paul
thanks for the history lesson but you still avoided my key questions: why do you call liberals elitist? Why do you denigrate a doctrine that was espoused by most of the great figures in US politicla history that you claim to the conservative cause, even though they were anything but conservatives, and would reject the title. They were revolutionaries, and saw themselves as such.
Conservatives can no more claim Paine, Jefferson, Adams, Maddison and Lincoln as their own than socialists can claim Milton Friedman. You guys have really put the “con” back into conservative. Its an indictment of the ignorance of the majority that this rubbish goes unchallenged so often. Even Burke would turn in his grave at some neo-con policies. He was deeply opposed to slavery and torture for one thing. I wonder what he would think of “conservatives” who legalised torture?
Witch-hunts are still pretty popular in Africa, especially Kenya. Contrary to popular belief, “witches” are/were almost always elderly females (or males) living in social isolation and poverty with a mental illness at the time of crop failure.
[“As a point of comparison, neither of the last two Democratic nominees — John F. Kerry in 2004 or Al Gore in 2000 — recorded support above 50 percent in a pre-election poll by the Post and ABC News. “]
Socrates you ignore the historical facts during the revolutionary war in America the leading conservative thinker in the United Kingdom Edmund Burke supported the American viewpoint. The American Revolution was a right wing conservative one that keeped the idea of an eighteenth century Monarchical system into its republican form of government. Unlike the left wing revolution in France 1789 and Russia 1917 that distroyed societies equilibrium. All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.
Ron, you’ve argued with so many people over so much nonsense, you can’t even remember who you were yelling at over which issue.
I couldn’t give a toss about Rezko, and never have.
You might want to focus.
Paul Nash
“All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.”
I think the key words here are “from my viewpoint”. They were trying to preserve ideals and principles, not institutions. Too many conservatives lately try to do the opposite. Either way, they saw themselves as liberals. Read Jefferson if you don’t believe me. Its a little difficult for conservatives to claim that US revolution figures acted in the name of a Conservatism that wasn’t defined by Burke till 20 years later, don’t you think? Hence my point, its rewritting history to claim these figures as conservatives. they were liberals, and said so. You might recall these words by Jefferson:
“We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government shall become destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, & to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles & organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety & happiness.”
Sounds like a liberal to me.
Paul
Further to the above, I note this comment of yours:
“All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.”
Rubbish. These people were willing to start wars and die for their beliefs. Here is Jefferson commenting on Shay’s rebellion:
“”What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
And here is his view on corporations:
“”I hope we shall crush … in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country”
Doesn’t sound very conservative, does he?
O’Possum Factor
so when you always say you follow th “data” , but yet when confronted with this Rezko ‘data’ in 3393 you choose to selectively NOT follow th ‘data’
Very unobjective , and thats th problem with th rusted on Obama supporters blind selective faith
That ABC poll had 1,092 sample
Eighty percent said they are concerned about the overall direction of the economy, nearly three-quarters worry about the shocks to the stock market, and six in 10 are apprehensive about their own family finances, the newspaper said.
Half of the respondents called the economy and jobs the single most important issue that will determine their vote, up from 37 percent two weeks ago.
[Paul, i think the only problem with what your saying is that all the polling suggests that
a) the economy is the biggest issue;
b) the majority blame the republicans for the mess; and
c) the majority of those polled say they trust the dems to fix it more than they do the repubs.]
Never let the facts get in the way of anything eh? 😉
Thomas Paine(Definately not the same man who stood up for American independence against the British Empire in the late 1700’s) your comments ignore the fact that the Democrats have chosen a light weight candidate and all the Liberal talk of how historic the occasion it presents is laughable. The candidate is not a descendant of Slavery in the United States he is a one generation american whose father was from the British colony of East Africa(Kenya). The corruption around his circles in Chicago would make what you’ve stated about Wall Street pale into insignificance. McCain and Palin will win because they can reach out to Heartland America which is tired of such rubbish as man made climate changed as exposed by trendy Liberals like Al Gore. As for Yo ho ho at this point in time I think the Democrats couldn’t run a bath.
340,
If Dole goes in NC, serves her right. She was a blowin in much the same way that Hillary blew into NY from Arkansas. [Not implying here at all that Hillary hasn’t represented and will represent people of NY well, just that the possibility exists that it could be the opposite end of the spectrum when you seek elected office in an area that you aren’t intimately familiar with]. If Dole loses, watch for her to immediately move back to her roots in Kansas …….
PN
Sadly your argument is based in faith not facts. About 85% of Americans are convinced CC is happening. And it’s a big winner for Obama. 😀
[Almost two-thirds, 62 percent, of all U.S. adults believe it is important that the next President of the United States initiates strong action to address climate change soon after taking office.]
Poll Shows Climate Change an Election Issue
http://www.eponline.com/articles/65440/
Paul, just saying that Obama is a lightweight candidate doesn’t make it true. He beat Clinton for the Democrat candidacy in probably one of the tightest and no-holds-barred races at that level for a long time. Your statement simply bears no relationship to reality.
Diogenes watch out also for the Canadian Election on October 15 , If the Conservative Party wins Harper will wind back all the CC issues initiated by the previous Liberal Government and then in November McCain wins the US all of North America will be a CC free zone and only Europe and little Australia will believe in such clap trap.
Did you folks know that on 23 September 2004, the Intrade markets were only two States out from the actual election results: Wisconsin and New Mexico.
The polls on the other hand….
Paul – are you predicting this with the same certainty that you predicted a Nats win in Lyne?
I’m interested to see what happens if Harper and Obama win. With Canada a ‘CC free zone’ but America not, it’ll make for some very interesting weather around Michigan, Minnesota etc… 😛
And Socrates 350 Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen would have made a fine Prime-Minister had not all the Australian establishment brick walls prevented him in such a real corrupt fashion. Afterall had it happened we would like the UK, USA and Canada had a real Conservative party in charge.
heh!
[And Socrates 350 Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen would have made a fine Prime-Minister had not all the Australian establishment brick walls prevented him in such a real corrupt fashion]
Ok, now it’s clear you’re just a troll
Paul Nash
“he corruption around his circles in Chicago would make what you’ve stated about Wall Street pale into insignificance”
Presume you ar not referring to
William Ayers th worst terrorist in US history (on FBI top 10 list for 10 years) who Obama first went to to start his career & worked under Ayers in Ayers foundation
Rezko convicted on Federal corruption charges of illinois public officials direcly under th Governor (Obama’s 17 year mate , who Obama worked for Rezko who for 10 years raised money for Obama & headed Obama’ committeee
Nadmi Auchi – Iraqi Billionaire swindler who helped himself to money from the Food for Oil program and coneection to Obama’s Chicago mansion.
Or other associates
Rashid Khalidi former PLO spokesman and supporter of terrorism against Israel.
Jeremiah Wright whaco anti American preacher
James Meeks a rabid racist,& anti-American preacher
Louis Farrakhan of th Nation of Islam. a renowned racist, anti-American, voracious Anti-Semite and homophobe
Which of these individuals are the ‘clean’ ones?
Any facts and figures Paul to back up your statements? Any at all?
Roflol! This is getting like FoxNooz: The O’Ronnly Factor – where silliness is no obstacle to discussion.
Ron
You really have excelled yourself.
[William Ayers th worst terrorist in US history]
And I thought it was Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. I must have missed all those 168+ people Ayers blew up.
Possum fox news is the only fair and balanced media compared with the established Liberal media accross the USA.
pedantic , one of worst terorists in US history
th “O’Possum Factor” where elitist intellegentsia is a substitute for denying reality
The Latino vote, which is up to 10% is favouring Obama 2:1. A big help in CO, NV and NM.
Latino vote emerges as swing vote in Colorado
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/king.battleground.colorado/index.html?eref=rss_politics&iref=polticker
Data is reality Ron
Data can be reality have you checked the latest Rasmussen poll in the states it clearly shows that McCain is ahead in two key battleground states Ohio and Florida.
And they both have big electoral college votes I think in 1976 Carter took Florida which helped him overcome Ford its looking deciding different this time around. The only similiarity is stagflation and high oil prices thats the 70s flavour. And we all know interesting times happened in the 70s don’t we possum ah la 1975
PN
What is your opinion of the accuracy of the different US polls? Which ones do you think are the most reliable and have the best past prediction records? Why don’t you educate Poss and the rest of us so we can learn from your experience.
Reality is that every measure has Obama winning. He’s winning the national polls, intrade, every betting market, electoral-vote, pollster, 538 and electionprojection.
Paul – I see every poll, everyday
The latest OH poll is an Insider Advantage poll showing a 46 a piece tie while the latest Ras has McCain by 4, while the latest FL poll is an NBC News/Mason-Dixon jobbie reading 47/45 to Obama with the latest Ras having McCain by 5.
And that pretty much shows the mess that US polling is at the moment.
Intrade has the best record – having only 2 states wrong as a prediction on 23rd Sep 2004. If you want to see the Intrade road to the Whitehouse for each candidate it’s here:
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2008/09/24/us-election-–-the-intrade-road-to-the-whitehouse/
The election is still Obama’s to lose – by a fair margin.
371,
Matters not, mate.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10
[map with NO tossup states based upon current trends]
He doesn’t need Ohio and Florida to win 😉
Oops – that link went blech.
This works:
http://tinyurl.com/3qrz5q
PN
You refer to “elitist liberals” and the need for “true conservatives”. I suppose the latter are much easier to find than truthful conservatives. 🙂
Still, what do you mean to be “elitist”? Do you mean elite as in intellect and achievement, or as in wealth and power? So is Richard Dawkins an elite? or George Bush?
Indeed, what do you mean by liberals and conservatives? You are obviously an expert in US history so please inform me which of the following famous American political figures were true conservatives and which were elitist liberals? Which ones called themselves liberals?
Thomas Paine
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
James Maddison
Benjamin Franklin
Abraham Lincoln
Hope you can enlighten an old philosopher who barely knows what he doesn’t know.
Thanks Poss, very nice intrade analysis. Have you looked much at the volatility of Intrade in elections past? Just wondering whether the conventions or debates historically provide much movement…
Thanks Poss, I found that Intrade link much more reliable than PN’s advice. Appreciate teh info on their reliability too. Curious the only US poll he could name was one which showed MccCain in front.
Seriously, from here the US either sorts out their economic problems at the expense of $800 Billion of taxpayers money, or goes into recession, or both. Most of this was due to problems the Republicans failed to stop, and actually withdrew resources from the relevant regulators. I don’t see how they can win in Novemer in any of those cases.
Dario – the conventions sent the Intrade markets a bit berko last year as well, but after a couple of weeks it was back to business as usual (which looks like what is happening this year). The debates didnt really do much – a few days worth of movement in a few states, but then back to the longer term trends that each state was showing before the debates. If this year is like 2004, as we approach the election, some of those 60% probabilities will start to move into 70, then the 80% – which really takes them completely out of the game.
Yeah, I figured the conventions would be the more likely to shake things up… if their debates are anything like ours then they are more likely to put everyone to sleep than change votes or perceptions about the state of play.
Dario
The movement after the conventions is very predictable and happened almost exactly as expected. It has now ended. It’s harder to be definitive about the debates, because some will say X won and others will say Y won (whereas the party holding the convention obviously wins it’s own “debate”). From what I’ve read, the debates actually NEVER change anything (except maybe when JFK beat Nixon). Everyone knows the Democrat candidate will be more intelligent and articulate, whereas the Republican will make simplistic appeals to character and patriotism.
Socrates Liberals are those that believe in the writings of John Stuart Mill and Conservatives the writings of Edmund Burke. In relation to the United States its somewhat blurred particularly in its first 100 years of Nationhood. The first two political parties were the Federalists basically formed in the Northern States of the Original 13 and the Democratic-Republican Party of the South luckily for the US both of these parties were Conservative with differences in the scope of how big the Federal Government should be. Later on the Federalists disappeared following the War of 1812 and America had a very stable period except in the 1840s when they flirted with the Whigs(a Pure Liberal Party) like the Whigs in the UK. The Republican Party formed prior to the Civil War due to a split in the Democratic-Republican Party over slavery then it just became the Democratic Party. I know the US was lucky that parties were conservative with the later being controlled by white southern Democrats.
Following Johnsons civil rights bills southern states drifted to the Republican Party and Democrats gained Republican stronghold states in the North and as a result became Liberal.
New ABC/Washington Post poll – Obama/McCain 52/43
Ouch!
Whoah!!!
Surprise Surprise a poll conducted jointly with a newspaper that started the second biggest witchhunt in world history.
The Salem witch trials?
Paul
thanks for the history lesson but you still avoided my key questions: why do you call liberals elitist? Why do you denigrate a doctrine that was espoused by most of the great figures in US politicla history that you claim to the conservative cause, even though they were anything but conservatives, and would reject the title. They were revolutionaries, and saw themselves as such.
Conservatives can no more claim Paine, Jefferson, Adams, Maddison and Lincoln as their own than socialists can claim Milton Friedman. You guys have really put the “con” back into conservative. Its an indictment of the ignorance of the majority that this rubbish goes unchallenged so often. Even Burke would turn in his grave at some neo-con policies. He was deeply opposed to slavery and torture for one thing. I wonder what he would think of “conservatives” who legalised torture?
Witch-hunts are still pretty popular in Africa, especially Kenya. Contrary to popular belief, “witches” are/were almost always elderly females (or males) living in social isolation and poverty with a mental illness at the time of crop failure.
Villagers lynch seven ‘witches’: police
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=nw20080618091808715C634465
Link for the new poll –
[“As a point of comparison, neither of the last two Democratic nominees — John F. Kerry in 2004 or Al Gore in 2000 — recorded support above 50 percent in a pre-election poll by the Post and ABC News. “]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/23/AR2008092303667.html?hpid=topnews
O’Possum Factor
Selectively ignoring data is th intellegentsia elitist way
Pretending Rezko does not exist is blinded objectivity & just as bad as Bill O’Reilly , so yous just read with closed minds
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/us/politics/14rezko.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/us/politics/14rezko.html?_r=4&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Socrates you ignore the historical facts during the revolutionary war in America the leading conservative thinker in the United Kingdom Edmund Burke supported the American viewpoint. The American Revolution was a right wing conservative one that keeped the idea of an eighteenth century Monarchical system into its republican form of government. Unlike the left wing revolution in France 1789 and Russia 1917 that distroyed societies equilibrium. All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.
Ron, you’ve argued with so many people over so much nonsense, you can’t even remember who you were yelling at over which issue.
I couldn’t give a toss about Rezko, and never have.
You might want to focus.
Paul Nash
“All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.”
I think the key words here are “from my viewpoint”. They were trying to preserve ideals and principles, not institutions. Too many conservatives lately try to do the opposite. Either way, they saw themselves as liberals. Read Jefferson if you don’t believe me. Its a little difficult for conservatives to claim that US revolution figures acted in the name of a Conservatism that wasn’t defined by Burke till 20 years later, don’t you think? Hence my point, its rewritting history to claim these figures as conservatives. they were liberals, and said so. You might recall these words by Jefferson:
“We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government shall become destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, & to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles & organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety & happiness.”
Sounds like a liberal to me.
Paul
Further to the above, I note this comment of yours:
“All those great men you mention are from my viewpoint true conservative who believed in at least keeping a balance of the status quo.”
Rubbish. These people were willing to start wars and die for their beliefs. Here is Jefferson commenting on Shay’s rebellion:
“”What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
And here is his view on corporations:
“”I hope we shall crush … in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country”
Doesn’t sound very conservative, does he?
O’Possum Factor
so when you always say you follow th “data” , but yet when confronted with this Rezko ‘data’ in 3393 you choose to selectively NOT follow th ‘data’
Very unobjective , and thats th problem with th rusted on Obama supporters blind selective faith
That ABC poll had 1,092 sample
Eighty percent said they are concerned about the overall direction of the economy, nearly three-quarters worry about the shocks to the stock market, and six in 10 are apprehensive about their own family finances, the newspaper said.
Half of the respondents called the economy and jobs the single most important issue that will determine their vote, up from 37 percent two weeks ago.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-us-usa-politics-poll-economy2.html
[Half of the respondents called the economy and jobs the single most important issue that will determine their vote, up from 37 percent two weeks ago]
Yikes