The Australian reports the latest Newspoll shows the parties still araldited together on 50-50, with Labor’s primary vote on 35 per cent (38.0 per cent at the election, 34 per cent in the Newspoll of September 10-12), the Coalition on 42 per cent (43.6 per cent and 41 per cent) and the Greens on 14 per cent (11.8 per cent and 14 per cent). This is despite a sharp deterioration in Tony Abbott’s personal ratings, which have seen a 9 per cent drop in approval (to 39 per cent) and rise in disapproval (47 per cent). By contrast, Julia Gillard is up four points on approval to 48 per cent and down three on disapproval to 33 per cent, and her lead as preferred prime minister has widened from 50-34 to 52-31. Full tables courtesy of GhostWhoVotes.
[Didn’t Chainsaw and Turnbull shake hands on a deal? Wasn’t it Howard Govt policy?]
Who is Turnbull?
Abbott is the leader, get used to it.
Wizzy
The Federal Govt can tax incorporated bodies any way it likes. It may not have powers to stop States from raising royalties. So what?
[* For every $1 the Gillard Government gives the Red Cross to care for community based asylum seekers, it will spend $30.41 dollars to keep asylum seekers in detention centres over the next 4 years.
* That’s $1.441 billion dollars on detention compared to $47.4 million dollars to the Red Cross Asylum Seeker Assistance Scheme]
And how much in centrelink handouts and public housing?
[The difficulty for Abbott is that his close affinity with Jones makes him guilty by association, particularly if he is present in the studio at the time and fails to raise any objections. This is dangerous territory for the leader of a mainstream party who needs the broad support of middle Australia.]
This part of the analysis in PvO’s article in ‘The Australian’ this morning caught my eye, and goes to the very heart of the perverse relationship ‘The Parrot’ has with those he considers his proteges. For those who have read Chris Master’s trenchant biography of ‘The Parrot’ the warning signs are all there.
Jones has a checkered history littered with inappropriate and improper relationships with those he was supposedly ‘mentoring’ which almost always ended in tears for those involved, and Jones’ subsequent removal from the role of influence he sought. One wonders whether this cosy relationship with Abbott is about to become another one of those failures where Jones goes too far, overstepping the line. Given our Tone’s robust claims of being ‘confronted’ by the very idea of homosexuality, Jones as his ‘mentor’ does seem to be a trifle odd to me, ‘The Parrot’s’ ultra reactionary fascist opinions notwithstanding.
Abbott has none of the skill of a JW Howard in dealing with skirting around the more outrageous on-air assertions and crass racism Jones is capable of screeching down the microphone, primarily because Abbott actually agrees with these claims.
[Socialism = When the right pays for the leftwings ideals
You guys are full of ideas.. now if only YOUR lot would pay for it, that’d be handy.]
Ahhh, Geewillakers, you come up with the funnniest lines. Maybe, if you keep it up I might begin to crack a half smile in response.
While I don’t normally engage in scholastic snobbery — you really need to educate yourself before making such nonsensical statement.
@4376,
As much as I sympathise with the ideal of pacifism. Of there being no good war. One thing that has to be asked is, is it justifiable to live a good life, and watch people in another country go back to the stone age and suffer all manner of horrors at the hands of religious zealots?
I mean, you do have several options here. One is to take over the country, not like the US did, but take over in force and stay there, providing enough police and civil service until the people learn how to live in a civilised state.
Or.. you can just let the violence and horror drag on and occasionally write books about it. And if necessary circle the country with tanks so they don’t bother us.
Or.. you can intervene but only so far as to offer free asylum and instant transport to anyone who wants it – assuming of course those who are feeling persecution can be actually reached, or aren’t under duress, or haven’t already been stoned for being gay, or are actually reduced to believing that their miserable existence as a second class citizen (I’m talking about women here) is perfectly normal/acceptable – or haven’t been indoctrinated against fleeing in one way or another. This is a nice idea I admit. It would be lovely to see places like Afghanistan gradually empty of women and children and end up being no more than a wasteland where zealots can fight it out. But.. I doubt this will work in practice.
So, what then? As much as I hate futile wars, I take issue with some in the left who find it convenient to denounce any potentially violent action but then quietly ignore obvious suffering.
I heard on the radio this week one expert who said “look, these guys just aren’t culturally ready to live in a civilised democracy – they want their tribal customs”… And even Phillip Adams, the guy doing the interview who arguably is one of the left and dislikes wars, any war.. was still wrestling with his conscience over things like stoning gay people to death. And he asked the guy well ok, how long would it take for these guys to finally become civilised and the reply was “centuries”.
That’s the problem. Untold death and suffering.. like the vision in 1984 “imagine a boot stomping on a human face, forever”.. can you stomach that? Where goes your urge to have some kind of police force that ultimate suppresses barbaric behaviour wherever its found? Or does it stop at the Australian border. If so you have no moral case.
[Underneath all this, there lingers the idea that asylum seekers “have no right” to be here, as if because of the languages they speak, the pigments of their skin, the religions they practice, or the cultures they share,]
What about the queue they jumped?
[Abbott is the leader, get used to it.]
Of what? I am perfectly happy with him leading the Rabble, but are they?
[Christopher Hitchens at his best – a great history lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuQq1svIvK4%5D
Thanks BK — good stuff
[What about the queue they jumped?]
Hey Wizzy, when you go to Woolies do you ever sneak through the 12 items or less queue with a trolley full? It is about the same as your silly remark.
[4390
Doyley
I was wondering how this shift in labor assylum policy gels in connection with the often discussed influence of the NSW right …..ie Arbib, Bitar etc?
The reason I ask this is …… I remember Kevin Rudd raising the issue of the party moving to the right on this issue the night Julia challenged.
Do you think this shows that the influence of the right has been overstated…….?]
Kevin’s statements that night came from desperation, pure and simple. The right were blamed by Kev because they are a large and convenient target. In reality, factional ties count for very very little in terms of policies. Gillard is from the left, supposedly, yet her views are very similar to those of Simon Crean, who is from the right. These appellations are not really about ideology. They are about the organisation of power, internal cohesion, the recruitment and protection of talent, and the allocation of political rewards. Factions are about people more than they are about ideas.
[The Federal Govt can tax incorporated bodies any way it likes. It may not have powers to stop States from raising royalties. So what?]
Minerals in the ground are property of the states, therefore any tax on those minerals or individuals making a profit from those minerals is only possible by state governments.
[Minerals in the ground are property of the states, therefore any tax on those minerals or individuals making a profit from those minerals is only possible by state governments.]
Bwahahhahhhhaa. Thanks for the laugh. 😛 😆
[Abbott is the leader, get used to it.]
I wouldn’t get too used to it, Whizzer. When even Samatha Maiden is taking pot shots at him in the Oz and other commentators there are looking decidedly sideways it is pretty certain that the Libs reckon he is fast approaching his “use by” date!
[Abbott is the leader, get used to it.]
The longer he is leader, the more doomed the Libs are … I for one, am quite happy for Abbott to be opposition leader for as long as he can be. He is unelectable. Simple as that.
He is becoming a laughingstock — it seems no matter how long and hard the team try to teach him his lines, he cannot help himself … and just blurts out embarrassing nonsense.
And when he can’t cope, he runs.
The MSM are beginning to desert him. Watch the rest of his ‘team’ do the same.
[GeeWizzPosted Saturday, October 16, 2010 at 8:14 pm | PermalinkThe Federal Govt can tax incorporated bodies any way it likes. It may not have powers to stop States from raising royalties. So what?
Minerals in the ground are property of the states, therefore any tax on those minerals or individuals making a profit from those minerals is only possible by state governments.
]
Then you will have no problem of the state resuming your property if there are minerals ? 🙂
GeeWizz@4403
I don’t know. How much? Why don’t you tell us?
GeeWizz@4407
Where was the queue located?
[The longer he is leader, the more doomed the Libs are … I for one, am quite happy for Abbott to be opposition leader for as long as he can be. He is unelectable. Simple as that. ]
Well lets see.
He took care of Rudd. Then he almost took care of Gillies, but fell 1 seat short.
Not a bad job when only a few years ago the Libs were a write off.
cud chewer
I am not a pacifist. At all.
But I am very strongly against going to wars based on obvious lies and/or wars that are highly likely to be lost.
I can recall looking at the purported ‘evidence’ of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction presented to the UN, and thinking at the time, what a load of cobblers.
As for the Afghanistan war, anyone with even a small amount of common sense and a small amount of knowledge about the history of Afghanistan could see from before the war started that it was going to be a loser.
To Briefly at 4361 apologies for my late reply as I have been outside with rake in hand trying to clean up a bit after the winds sweeping through Newcastle today have finally died down a bit. No damage here locally that I have heard about.
I know that sometimes there is are posts expressing annoyance on PB for sometimes wavering away from being purely and solely about politics. I don’t always have an interest in following closely all of these other subjects but certainly appreciate the fact that others do and I think that our host allowing people to diverge and post away from our main subject is one of the things that makes PB what it is. I have been coming to PB since roughly 12mths before the 2007 election, having become a SF retiree late 2006 hence my interest in financial matters although I have always tried to educate myself enough to care for my own finances. We all have an interest in politics in common however the different backgrounds and experiences of the people who come to PB and post on subjects outside politics makes their comments valuable.
I see that GW is still catching a few trout.
[Where was the queue located?]
The queue is in the refugee camps of which there are millions who are having their spots taken by these people.
GeeWizz@4412
Actually they’re not. The property above the ground is the states and can be legislated to the c’wealth if the c’wealth chooses to. Think Mabo.
But the stuff below the ground? It’s not actually owned by the state at all.
BK @ 4375
[WeeJism has become just plain boring and worthy of total ignoring. Let’s send him to Coventry by not responding to his rubbish.]
Agreed – I resolved a few threads back to boycott responding to GeeWizz’s ignorance. Best to pretend GW does not exist, because the facts when presented in rebuttal have no effect on such loons anyway.
Come on PBers, get with the programme!
GeeWizz@4423
But where is the queue that they could join?
briefly @4411,
thanks for that.
Do you see this policy change on assylum seekers and the move towards a price on carbon as pure pragmatism by Julia in light of the “new political reality “or a real attempt by her to move back to the centre left ground where, I believe, modern labor needs to go to be relevant and successful in the future?
Boerwar@4422
Actually, it’s going to be short work. Little tards like him are good asking questions trying to put people in loops, but are not too flash on the thinking side, and answering their own questions. So a couple of questions that corner him, and then repeatedly asking those questions until they go troppo, is the best method to get rid of them.
It drives em bonkers.
GeeWizz@4401
So where is this strategy different from Rudd/Gillard?
GeeWizz@4419
So what you’re saying is he lost?
GeeWizz@4382
So can you tell me what the liberal parental leave program and socialism share? Can you fill me in on the details of how they differ?
[Who is Turnbull?]
The Peacock who may rise phoenix like from the ashes?
@4420,
[But I am very strongly against going to wars based on obvious lies and/or wars that are highly likely to be lost.]
I don’t like being lied to either. But the relevant facts are not about how we got where we are, but what we do now. We can either choose to continue to train the Afghans, and in so doing may give the government (as corrupt as it is) more bargaining power to deal with the Taliban and thus when they ultimately do a deal, the worst bits of Sharia Law remain unconstitutional.. or we withdraw suddenly which increases the chances of a total breakdown and a return the Taliban only this time the other tribes and the Warlords will be better prepared and the ensuing war will be longer and bloodier than the last.
Even if we could just wish it all away and say hey Taliban, take the place back. In a decade we’ll be dealing with documentaries of atrocities yet again. Change the channel? Or do the job properly? Or make the best of the situation as it is now?
privi
The Libs like corporate socialism, like giving the Telco’s $6 billion or giving power stations even more.
Oh and about the “wars highly likely to be lost”.. The answer to that is, if you want to win it, you gotta pay for it. Not just half a million troops, but half a million civil servants, engineers and teachers. One can only hope that’s possible in somewhat less than “centuries”…
[It’s an issue because the Australian people have decided it’s an issue.]
To a minority of rightards like you, maybe. But Opinion Polls show you’re in a small & decreasing minority. About 5%, in fact; more than exit polls indicated.
Essential Poll 10 October 2101 presented those being polled with 15 isues, people were asked Which are the three most important issues in deciding how you would vote at a federal election. Number 1-3, with 1 the most important.
Treatment of asylum seekers was ranked 2nd lowest – 13 out of 15%
1% rated it at as most important; 2%, 2nd most important; 2%. 3rd most important – so only 5% rated it as important in deciding how to vote.
Only managing population growth had less support. Security & the war on terrorism came 3rd last.
The link to this is @ http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/10/12/newspoll-50-50-4/
So 1% of Australians regard the Asylum Seekers’ issue as important an issue as you do. Only 5% think it’s important.
Howard’s gone. You’re part of 1%! Get over it.
“Stop the boats” may be the issue that cost Abbott the election. 😀
We have been quite willing and able to blame governments for the dilemma of asylum seekers & refugees but where are the protests from the concerned citizens in support of their plight?
We allow the media such as the likes of Bolt, Akerman, Jones & the mainstream tv programs to demonise these people. Where are the reports, docos etc, showing the misery these people are escaping from?
Somehow we have come to the point where we cannot empathise. Where ethnics, in particular people of Arab extraction have no value. Their lives are seen as meaningless.
Take Akerman for example. He wrote a blog on the plight of the Israelis. After many comments, I made one regarding Antony Loewenstein of Melbourne & how his trip to Palestine demonstrated to him the worst apartheid & suppression of a nation he had come across in his studies. Akerman responded that Loewenstein was an idiot self hating Jew. The giste of his vitriolic response was virtually implying that these people had no worth as human beings. Bolt is no better. Then look at Jones comments on the soldiers. OK, they may not have been guilty of any wrongdoing but the implied response to their situation is virtually, so what? So some kiddies got killed. It’s not that some kiddies got killed but the fact they are Arab.
Then pick a show, any show. ACA, 7.30 report,Today Tonight. They all report these people of not being worthy of help.
We see these people as having no value at all. But you look at the ones who did come into Australia the so-called legal way. Communities are upset because they feel these people are depriving them of some government assistance. The legality of the issue is nothing but a smokescreen for acceptable racism.
Did anyone watch, The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan? I couldn’t sleep for several nights. Then thought about the 200 young orphaned Afghani boys who are asylum seekers in Indonesian jails with adults. I contacted Chris Evans who graciously replied promptly that he had contacted the relevant authorities. They in turn contacted me & said they were in the process of trying to get something done about it.
Aussies need to see on prime time what it is these people are fleeing. Instead we get MSM inflaming hatred, prejudice & hogtying governments into inaction.
Sorry for poor memory but I never watch the relevant shows and can’t remember whether PB considers Leigh Sales one of the good guys or the bad guys.
Rhys Muldoon tweeted a bit yesterday about strong rumours that Leigh Sales would get the 7:30 Report host gig but that the host would not interview and Uhlmann would do the political stuff.
My own view is that whoever the host, whatever the format, production of the show will move to ABC 24 studios in the first of a series of moves to have all news and current affairs emanate from there.
I’m no TV tech-head 🙂 so do not know whether it’s easier to up-convert an SD signal or down-covert an HD or whether it makes no difference but given all the hoo ha about doing ABC 24 within existing resources and the centralisation of services such as sound and film libraries I just feel “it’s the vibe” …
The war in Afghanistan will gradually lose support in the US, NATO countries and Australia and “we” will leave in about 3-4 years time.
Reports of success will abound, then the country will be ignored and forgotten.
By then there will be another place to test the newest war toys, some other country to keep the military industry making billions. 🙁
cud chewer
The Afghanistan end game is on. The US is making preparations to pull out. Hard as it might be for Australians to accept, no-one will be ‘letting’ the Taliban do anything. They won. There will be a face-saving deal between the Taliban and the Karzai Government. The Karzai Government will not last because it is unrepresentative, corrupt, inefficient and represents no ideal acceptable to most Afghans.
The most likely scenario after 20 years of Western failure in Afghanistan (I count the Russians in that general Western failure) is that Afghanistan will become a failed nation with a series of proxy wars as Iran, pakistan, Uzbekistan, Tajkistan and Khasakstan fight it out for influence.
The only real remaining questions for Australia are:
(1) Do we simply track the US and pull out when they do, whenever that is?
(2) Do we pull out before the US because the war is lost and we don’t want to waste any more blood and treasure?
(3) Do we stay after the US leaves, because the US is wrong to leave too early?
[By then there will be another place to test the newest war toys, some other country to keep the military industry making billions.]
Why didn’t they parachute into Zimbabwe to save millions from genocide?
They make me boil with rage.
[Who is Turnbull?
Abbott is the leader, get used to it.]
Jesus, you sound like someone from Stalinist Russia.
How’s the paramilitary going?
[The Karzai Government will not last because it is unrepresentative, corrupt, inefficient and represents no ideal acceptable to most Afghans.]
BW, they have not learned anything from the Vietnam War.
[The South Vietnam Government will not last because it is unrepresentative, corrupt, inefficient and represents no ideal acceptable to most Vietnamese.]
If USA and its Allies pull out, the real potential loser will be India. It’s bad enough India has to face the extreme Islamic elements internally and Pakistan, now add Afghanistan. It will have its hand full.
BTW: Have we got fly casting for trouts patented?
[Uhlmann would do the political stuff.]
After watching abcnews24 for few weeks, I can say I am heartily sick of hearing from Mr Uhlmann. Anyway, I am watching much less of it due to the repeating programs and because is not living up to its 24 hour news label. Cutting from the PM’s news conferences to go to repeats of Compass or Landline really took the cake.
My thoughts on asylum seekers and immigrants; I don’t care where they come from as long as they bring recipes.
Rod Hagen, I thought it was Holt that officially abandoned the White Australia Policy. How much the country has changed since then.
In my opinion, the abolition of the WAP was one of the most important things to occur in my lifetime. Though it could hardly have been foreseen at the time, this move eventually opened the way for every cultural/social stereotype to be identified, named, analysed, contested and discarded. The conscious decision to abandon “colour” as condition for acceptance into this society really did constitute the initiation of a new paradigm.
It has taken time, but from then on, nearly all distinctions based on race, culture, religion, gender, sexuality, marital status, age, ability and so on have come to be seen for what they are: expressions of fear, exclusion and shame that deny our individual freedom and offend our belief in a dignified, universal equality.
It is all the more surprising, therefore, that nearly 50 years on, some people still cling to their fears, rather like those thrown into the sea will cling to any piece of debris in order to stay afloat rather than swim to dry land.
One of the few remaining arbitrary distinctions still used to pre-judge newcomers is whether they arrive by boat or by plane. Surely this is as out of date as the White Australia Policy was in 1966.
http://primeministers.naa.gov.au/primeministers/holt/in-office.aspx
So, the questions for this week’s ‘debate’ on the Afghanistan War is,
‘Which Afghanistan war aims should Gillard enunciate?’
Should she say, ‘The Afghanistan War is lost?’
Should she say, ‘The US is at war, therefore we are at war?’
Should she say, ‘We are pulling out now because we are wasting blood and treasure?’
We know from Abbott’s support for more troops and more weapons for a war already lost is that he simply does not understand the Afghanistan War. At all.
I for one hope that GeeWizz continues to expound his/her ideas and opinions here. To his/her heart’s content, in fact.
Because that’s what got them turfed out last time.
Finns
Trout flies, real flies, mosquitoes, sandflies, chiggers, trolling, coarse fishing, reels and creels all patented.
[I for one hope that GeeWizz continues to expound his/her ideas and opinions here. To his/her heart’s content, in fact.
Because that’s what got them turfed out last time.]
Good point. Copy and paste away, WeeJizz!