The latest of Essential Research’s fortnightly polls, which continue to limit themselves to issue questions in the wake of the great pollster failure, focuses mostly on the Israel Folau controversy. Respondents registered high levels of recognition of the matter, with 22% saying they had been following it closely, 46% that they had “read or seen some news”, and another 17% saying they were at least “aware”.
Probing further, the poll records very strong support for what seem at first blush to be some rather illiberal propositions, including 64% agreement with the notion that people “should not be allowed to argue religious freedom to abuse others”. However, question wording would seem to be very important here, as other questions find an even split on whether Folau “has the right to voice his religious views, regardless of the hurt it could cause others” (34% agree, 36% disagree), and whether there should be “stronger laws to protect people who express their religious views in public” (38% agree, 38% disagree). Furthermore, 58% agreed that “employers should not have the right to dictate what their employees say outside work”, which would seem to encompass the Folau situation.
Respondents were also asked who would benefit and suffer from the federal government’s policies over the next three years, which, typically for a Coalition government, found large companies and corporations expected to do best (54% good, 11% bad). Other results were fairly evenly balanced, the most negative findings relating to the environment (26% good, 33% bad) and, funnily enough, “older Australians” (26% good, 38% bad). The economy came in at 33% good and 29% bad, and “Australia in general” at 36% good and 27% bad. The poll was conducted last Tuesday to Saturday from a sample of 1099.
Also of note:
• A referendum on indigenous recognition may be held before the next election, after Aboriginal Affairs Minister Ken Wyatt’s announcement on Wednesday that he would pursue a consensus option for a proposal to go before voters “during the current parliamentary term”. It is clear the government would not be willing to countenance anything that went further than recognition, contrary to the Uluru Statement from the Heart’s call for a “First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution” – a notion derided as a “third chamber of parliament” by critics, including Scott Morrison.
• A paper in the University of Western Australia Law Review keeps the Section 44 pot astir by suggesting 26 current members of federal parliament may fall foul by maintaining a “right of abode” in the United Kingdom – a status allowing “practically the same rights” as citizenship even where citizenship has been formally renounced. The status has only been available to British citizens since 1983, but is maintained by citizens of Commonwealth countries who held it before that time, which they could do through marriage or descent. This could potentially be interpreted as among “the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power”, as per the disqualifying clause in Section 44. Anyone concerned by this has until the end of the month to challenge an election result within the 40 day period that began with the return of the writs on June 21. Action beyond that point would require referral by the House of Representatives or the Senate, as appropriate.
For whom to barrack, the Kiwis or the Lions?
Rex
Yep, we’re on the same page here!
GG:
[‘One too many Clarets for clarity comrade!’]
It takes one to know one. Really, one expects better than that – and especially from you. Indeed, I’m only into my second flagon.
Zoomster when did I write that? you are verballing me.
DG
That global audience makes Messi worth fifty times as much. It’s a commercial reality. About a million Messi Barcelona shirts are sold each year. That’s probably more than all the 18 AFL clubs together.
Nup the Women’s World cup captain reckons that she is worth as much.. probably thinks that Buddy is too… deluded or what?
Being paid what one is “worth” is an interesting debate item. A little while back the guy in charge of British Gas was going to get a some astronomical pay increase – forget the figure – but something like 4000 pounds extra a day, and a reporter asked why he should get so much? He thought for a minute or two and said something like, “Well this is what people like me get for what I do”…………………..Meanwhile, the CEO of Easyjet was also asked a similar question as to why she was taking home millions in pay, and her pat answer was that she “added value” to the airline.
I do not begrudge these souls making a quid.
What bugs me is when their business/job/profession goes belly up, they don’t seem to pay anything for their failure, as, of course, they did not fail, the business does.
The bank executives who almost destroyed the whole capitalist system in the GFC, as soon as the tax payer bailed the banks out, went looking for their bonuses…………………says it all I guess.
Diogenes @ #404 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 8:50 pm
But, is he nice to his cat?
Given most youse are almost off the planet tonight – no offence BB, GG – I’ll do a Pepys.
Now which polling company do you think will be the first to stick their toe into the proverbial water?
clem attlee @ #405 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 8:52 pm
She says that knowing it’s not real.
Her mission is to create a dream for the next generation and the others beyond.
I like her because she knows who she is and what she wants to achieve.
GG
There is a famous puma called Messi in Russia. He lives in someone’s apartment I think.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/7/11/18759712/teen-suicide-depression-anxiety-how-to-help-resources
Diogenes @ #411 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 9:02 pm
I’ll take that as a comment.
Anyway —
Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence.
All rights carry with them limiting responsibilities.
All freedoms are unlimited only to the extent that they do not impinge on other’s freedoms.
Horosho:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkO7be9Dn2c
Boerwar @ #415 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 9:07 pm
What I love about PB is people know so much about things that mean FA.
Zoomster
Yes. It’s called respect. Folau is demanding respect he is not willing to give himself.
That’s respecting others don’t have his religious beliefs. That also means his religion does not trump his secular contract.
You only have to look at Indonesia with its blasphemy laws to see how dangerous such laws are.
Ha, ha, Zoomster spent all that time trawling back through countless pages trying to prove that she didn’t verbal me. Unsuccessfully I might add.
Well Zoomster, if you are going to be shot, where is the freedom? As I said semantics.
Boerwar says:
Friday, July 12, 2019 at 8:47 pm
For whom to barrack, the Kiwis or the Lions?
Kiwis. But I’d like to see a haka too. I’d like more haka in general. I feel haka in my bones and limbs every day. I feel it. I feel the haka of Green Valley. I feel the haka of the Tasman Sea, the moana. The haka of the Great Southern Ocean and the Fitzroy River in flood and in dry. There should be more haka. Ka mate, ka mate. Cricket needs haka.
I met Lady Manchester last night in Fremantle. She is a gardener and has gorgeous skin, the colour of roast duck, and no aitches in her speech, and fast and bright eyes, and wants to be painted, quite likely in the nude. She is also haka. First grade haka. I saw another haka on Hepburn Avenue this morning. She was jogging, going west. Throwing herself into each stride. She evinced purpose with every step, with every lift of the knees and forward reach of the haunch and her arms going like conrods.
Cricket needs something. It is so incredibly boring. It is global sedative.
Amazed that anyone could glean from what I’ve written here that I am some kind of Catholic, practising or not.
Or that I support Israel Folau’s attitudes or his comments regarding anything, especially religion, the existence of Heaven or Hell, and homosexuality.
Don’t waste your time or pity on me, bigots of the Left. Use it to examine yourselves. You’re doing more harm to the cause of gay tolerance than an army of Israel Folaus, simply by egging on the reactionaries who are far better at their jobs than you are at yours here, on a small blog in the backblocks of the WWW.
As BW correctly points out the Greens have done more to stifle the cause of the Environment than the Coal Lobby could ever dream of getting away with. Likewise the incessant obsessions with gay rights, #metoo, and the condemnation of anyone or anything who diverts from what you deem to be morally acceptable is stifling debate and uniting the reactionaries of the Right to common cause.
And if all else fails you can level sexist, ageist, relugious insults at others, irrespective of the fact that this is what you claim to be against.
We achieved Same Sex Marriage only just, against prolonged and vehement objection, far later than other comparable countries. Now there’s a chance that the right to vilify homosexuals may enter a new golden age, simply because you never saw a difference of opinion that shouldn’t be banned, mocked or insulted. In championing Free Speech – but only your version if it – you open the door the the very kind of repression you claim to be fighting.
I suspect you enjoy it, enjoy the fight – and prolonging the fight – more than the goal. There’s more joy in judging others than getting on with them. You fear others. You fear and hate The Other as much as you claim The Other fears and hates you. I suspect that resting in your wowserish comfort zones you prefer to lose the fight gloriously rather than win it peaceably. I can’t figure this out, except to observe that bigots never need a reason. They just need more bigotry.
The Spectator Index
@spectatorindex
15s15 seconds ago
BREAKING: UK will send another warship to the Gulf amid soaring tensions with Iran
BB
You argued against Marriage Equality.
Each time rights for LGBTI are on the line you are there arguing why it can’t be done.
briefly @ #421 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 9:26 pm
Wake yourself up by walking down to your local park come October.
Always does the job for me.
I don’t think they should play any more cricket without haka. Cricket without haka is like poached eggs without salt. Cricket is imperialism without an empire.
Bushfire Bill @ #422 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 9:29 pm
You have every right to parrot 2GB…
Oakeshott Country:
[‘..but then conclude that suicide is higher in homosexuals. There seems to be some observer bias.’]
You really are as thick as a brick.
https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/sexuality/fast-lane/article/2019/07/11/gay-teen-shares-letter-he-left-his-homophobic-parents-when-he-fled-home
briefly @ #427 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 9:35 pm
I’m a hard boiled with soldiers sort of guy!
BB
You argued against Marriage Equality.
Each time rights for LGBTI are on the line you are there arguing why it can’t be done.
That is so batshit fuckin’ crazy Guytaur that I don’t know how to respond, except to say you are the perfect illustration of someone who is never so happy as when he is passing judgement on others.
You levelled this allegation against me at the time and actually apologized for it when forced to admit you were wrong. Why do you bring it up again? You know it’s a lie, worse, a deliberate one.
You are such a smarmy little goody-two-shoes. And utterly dishonest.
Bushfire Bill says:
Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:40 pm
BB
You argued against Marriage Equality.
Each time rights for LGBTI are on the line you are there arguing why it can’t be done.
That is so batshit fuckin’ crazy Guytaur that I don’t know how to respond, except to say you are the perfect illustration of someone who is never so happy as when he is passing judgement on others.
You levelled this allegation against me at the time and actually apologized for it. Why do you bring it up again? You know it’s a lie, worse, a deliberate one.
You are such a smarmy little goody-two-shoes. And utterly dishonest.
_________________________________________
Tell us what you really think old feller!
clem
1. No, I haven’t bothered going back at all. I’ve been watching “Sherlock’ and nicking down in the ad breaks.
2. I’m not going to get circular in this. If you want to keep regurgitating the same points, go ahead. I’ve already addressed them, and if you don’t understand that, there’s no point me doing so again.
3. I repeat: freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence, even if that consequence is more free speech, from those telling you you’re wrong.
I haven’t watched cricket since Greg Chappell retired, or possibly even before then. It is a strikingly dull game. I think chess is slightly more interesting, but it’s a close one. It would be better if they changed the rules every time. Made the pitch short, or longer. Abolished run-outs, which is simply a way of obstructing ambition. They could change the new ball rule in favour of the bowler.
They could require players to take the field when already drunk. They could reduce the teams to six-a-side and bring in the boundary. There’s a lot they could do to make it more interesting. They could play with a bigger ball.
They should abolish the rule that prevents throwing. Throwing should be encouraged.
BB
Oh yes all those pages about baking and not having the freedom to run your business the exact opposite of what you are saying about Folau.
With my argument I am arguing about the right of business to sack based on hate speech.
You disagree about the assertion of hate speech. That’s where you keep failing. This due to ignoring evidence of why it’s hate speech.
Your belief doesn’t matter. Stopping hate speech does
Also look at that post I just linked. It explains homophobia impacting on a person inflicted by his parents
Also to be crystal clear religious speech does not protect Folau in the Secular world or else it’s not the secular world but a theocracy. That all important part of freedom from religion
BB:
[‘Amazed that anyone could glean from what I’ve written here that I am some kind of Catholic, practising or not.’]
That can’t be implied; that’s fair enough. But please stop playing the dullard elsewhere.
guytaur says:
Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:47 pm
BB
Oh yes all those pages about baking and not having the freedom to run your business the exact opposite of what you are saying about Folau.
With my argument I am arguing about the right of business to sack based on hate speech.
You disagree about the assertion of hate speech. That’s where you keep failing. This due to ignoring evidence of why it’s hate speech.
Your belief doesn’t matter. Stopping hate speech does
__________________________________
I don’t know what your saying, but I support your right to say it regardless!
You are a magnificent youth in full flower ready to be plucked!
Voltaire, of course, did not make that famous statement, and in fact had a couple of people who criticised him locked up in the Bastille.
Voltaire played cricket. Couldn’t bat. Couldn’t bowl. But played like a tiger.
As GG opined: I should go to bed, but sometimes the script gets interesting.
Have you considered becoming a catamite guytaur?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-12/household-income-and-wealth-abs-data-shows-rich-are-richer/11302696
Guytaur, there is nothing you or probably anyone else can do to change Israel Folau’s mind or his religious beliefs.
For myself I have no relugious beliefs and don’t care about homosexual issues too deeply. That does not mean I’m against gays or churchmen. If anything I’m agnostic on both issues.
I went through Catholic schools from the start, but came away a heathen, cured of religion, Heaven, Hell and sins of pure thought.
But that doesn’t mean I hate the Catholic church.
Likewise I’m heterosexual, but (as I explained to you over and over again during the SSM lead-up) that doesn’t mean I’m homophobic, despite what you appear to wish to foist on me.
You’ve really got to get over this judgementalism that you trot out whenever you’re losing an argument, this easy condemnation of others who happen to not share your exact beliefs.
You don’t need to be religious to appreciate genuine freedom of religion. And you don’t need to be queer to vote “Yes” in an SSM referendum. Please get that through your very thick head.
And Lars, I’m not that fuckin’ old. It’s just a label that what passes for the Young Intelligensia around here use as a convenient insult.
Bushfire Bill says:
Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:00 pm
Guytaur, there is nothing you or probably anyone else can do to change Israel Folau’s mibd or his religioys beluefs.
For myself I have no relugious beliefs and don’t care about homosexual issues too deeply. That does not mean I’m against gays or churchmen. If anything I’m agnostic on both issues.
I went through Catholic schools from the start, but came away a heathen, cured of religion, Heaven, Hell and sins of pure thought.
But that doesn’t mean I hate the Catholic church.
Likewise I’m heterosexual, but (as I explained to you over and over again during the SSM lead-up) that doesn’t mean I’m homophobic, despite what you appear to wish to foist on me.
You’ve really got to get over this jydgementalism that you trot out whenever you’re losing an argument, this easy condemnation of others who happen to not share your beliefs.
You don’t need to be religious to appreciate genuine freedom of religion. And you don’t need to be queer to vote “Yes” in an SSM referendum. Please get that through your very thick head.
_________________________________________________
Too verbose, could you tell us in 1-2 sentences what your trying to say please?
I’m pretty sure Voltaire would have played in the back-pocket for the Liberals in the Senate. He was bourgeois. He would have understood sinecure and handball. He would have advocated a singular legalism and the abolition of bureaucracy.
Where are the Germans?
briefly:
[‘Voltaire played cricket. Couldn’t bat. Couldn’t bowl. But played like a tiger.’]
Good one.
sprocket_ @ #424 Friday, July 12th, 2019 – 7:35 pm
Thanks sprocket. Rowe as always is so prescient.
I had a semi argument today with the local Liberal branch president who insisted that Scotty has authority and therefore Scotty will prevail with a referendum on indigenous constitutional recognition. I begged to differ obviously, given the Abbottobods speaking out trying to undermine the referendum.