What I believe will be the farewell Nielsen poll for the Fairfax papers shows no dividend to Tony Abbott of the carbon tax repeal or (so far) the MH17 response, with Labor’s lead up from 53-47 at last month’s poll to 54-46. The poll of 1400 respondents was conducted from Thursday to Sunday, from which you can draw your own conclusions about its likely responsiveness to what’s occurred over that time. Labor is up three points on the primary vote to 40%, with the Coalition steady at 39%, the Greens down one to 12% and Palmer United steady on 5%. However, Tony Abbott’s personal ratings have improved: his approval is up three to 38% with disapproval down four to 56%, the gap on preferred prime minister narrows from 47-40 to 46-41, and while Bill Shorten is down one on approval to 41% and up three on disapproval to 44%. Even more entertainingly, there are personal ratings for Clive Palmer (approval 37%, disapproval 51%) and a preferred treasurer poll (Joe Hockey’s lead narrowing from 51-34 in a poll conducted I-don’t-know-how-long-ago to 42-42 now.
UPDATE: Phil Coorey in the Financial Review relates results on the leaders’ personal characteristics; more from Michelle Grattan at The Conversation.
kezza2@449
My father had no doubts about that. He was there during WWII and there was no Israel but there was a Palestine.
He did not imagine it. His Squadron records refer to Palestine.
The population was largely Palestinian Arabs with some Jewish people.
lizzie
At most you would be 10 years older than me. I was born in the 50s. Pink has never been the colour for boys, in my world.
Gives credence to the Jesuit notion of “giving a child over to indoctrination for 7 years, and you have the adult for life” doesn’t it.
@Reuters: Fighting erupts in Ukraine as crash investigators arrive http://t.co/0s8OzAzz4V
kezza2
[And bugger people like Psephos who pretend that there was never a land called Palestine.
I remember my studies. There was a land called Palestine. And it used to be coloured red.]
I am with you Putin’s treatment of the Palestinians is utterly disgraceful.
Doh!
Of course I meant Netanyahu!
I just gave myself a good clip over the ear 😆
@ABCNews24: Live: Ukraine’s Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk is giving an update on the #MH17 investigation http://t.co/FlRWJArtyW
“@scattermoon: Donetsk is a major city. So that’s a lot of people at risk from the shelling. Between that and the Gaza massacre, today has depressing news.”
MTBW
[I am with you Putin’s treatment of the Palestinians is utterly disgraceful.]
Huh? I mean, HUH?
What the fook you onna bout, girl?
I assume the reason why Abbott put his brainfart of declaring M17 an act of terrorism in the deep freeze was, it would void every travel insurance claim.
The man is mad.
kezza
See 455!
“@abcnews: “We have recovered 272 bodies, 251 which are already loaded in the refrigerators” – Ukrainian PM #MH17”
ruawake@459
I don’t wish to defend the Prime Moron, but aren’t acts of war also excluded from travel insurance policies?
“@abcnews: Ukrainian PM says no indication of any kind of military activity or counter terrorist operation at the area of #MH17 crash site.”
Absolutetwaddle
[When the Palestinian public at large wake up to the fact that having Hamas and Islamic Jihad run amok firing rockets, making threats and kidnapping/murdering Israelis is largely responsible for their current predicament, progress will be made. The fact is if you throw a rock at the Israelis, you get a bullet in return. If you fire a fucking rocket at them, you’ll get a polite phone call if you’re lucky then twenty rockets in return. It’s very likely at least a few of those rockets will kill a kid or a cripple or a grandmother.]
Are you saying you support the Israeli use of force in this regard?
There was an article the other day (sorry, no link) complaining that it was now virtually impossible to buy any other colour than pink for girls’ toys. This is sales pushing and brainwashing.
lizzie
Not surprising that in the US girls can opt for pink….
[Keystone makes Crickett and Chipmunk rifles specifically for children. They are light and have stocks in different colours, including swirls and pink for girls.But they are fully-functioning guns]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/young-guns-the-rifles-made-especially-for-children-8601794.html
poroti
I think I saw some of those. Ugh!
Perhaps a pink gun has softer bullets 😮
Astrobleme
I’m merely stating the reality of the situation. Do you foresee it changing any time soon?
One you recognise that yes, Israel will throw everything it has at you in response to any provocation and no, they do not give a shit about what the ‘international community’ or the UN have to say about it, provoking Israel becomes a very bad idea. Just think it’s time Hamas and its supporters ‘got’ this, it’s taking long enough.
Meher baba
[I can see Israel over decades making concessions and offering more. But, over that time, the Palestinians have become far more extremist and uncompromising.]
http://twitter.com/SafeensS/status/490513879454085122/photo/1
Check out the chloropleth map of Palestine’s atrophy. There have been no concessions that Israel have honoured.
It is ridiculous for an occupying power to expect its victims to respond to brutality with reason. People rarely respond well to decades of abuse. Israel is carrying out collective punishment — not because it imagines this will improve matters in the long run but perhaps because it believes it will prolong the hatred. Having an existential enemy is a useful thing.
But I wasn’t arguing the merits here. I was questioning why western media concern over MH 17 dwarfed that over the Israeli assault on Gaza.
[guytaur
Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:23 pm | PERMALINK
“@abcnews: Ukrainian PM says no indication of any kind of military activity or counter terrorist operation at the area of #MH17 crash site.”]
WHAT? Oh FFS!
So where does the investigation go now?
Black boxes were always important, but now even more so.
One of the first articles I read was that 12, yes TWELVE, black boxes, had been recovered. Sheesh.
Does this mean Ukranian involvement initially, and is now a cover-up by the Ukraine?
Surely Putin is to blame, isn’t he? Hey, that fucker on 60 minutes told us so. Didn’t he.
Or, maybe, that was Liz Hayes. Who do we sue now?
“@brendanmaa: Strong words, Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk: “This is not conflict between Ukraine & Russia, this is global conflict. Russia is from the dark side””
[I don’t wish to defend the Prime Moron, but aren’t acts of war also excluded from travel insurance policies?]
No I checked the Comm Bank forms for when my father died on a plane in January.
btw Got $39,000 back on insurance – eventually.
kezza2
Claims from the government in Kiev has the same believability rating as claims from Moscow.
[I don’t wish to defend the Prime Moron, but aren’t acts of war also excluded from travel insurance policies?]
If he declares it an act of terrorism people are eligible for up to $75,000 compo from the government.
[The Balfour Declaration may be the most extraordinary document produced by any Government in world history. It took the form of a letter from the Government of His Britannic Majesty King George the Fifth, the Government of the largest empire the world has even known, on which — once upon a time — the sun never set; a letter to an international financier of the banking house of Rothschild who had been made a peer of the realm.
Arthur Koestler wrote that in the letter “one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third.” More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.]
[Foreign Office, November 2nd,1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of His Majesty’s Government the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet:
“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
I should be grateful if you would bring this Declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour]
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html
[I’m merely stating the reality of the situation. Do you foresee it changing any time soon?]
No.
Neither side is willing to pay the actual price for peace. So they will war until they work out how to find peace or one or both are destroyed.
It’s a horrific situation.
[ MTBW
Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:18 pm | Permalink
Doh!
Of course I meant Netanyahu!
]
——————————————————
I honestly don’t know enough about Israeli/Palestine/Netanyahu to make informed comments about the present situation ….but I do know/am a fan of Netanyahu’s brother Yonatan “Yoni” Netanyahu , who was the commander of the elite Israeli army commando unit Sayeret Matkal in one of the most daring rescue missions in modern history at Entebee airport where they rescued 102 hostages
He was the only Israeli soldier killed in action during Operation Entebbe in Uganda.
[Fran Barlow
Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 5:07 pm | Permalink
BW@66
(a) Did 300 unarmed passengers fall out of the sky in Gaza too?
No. The unarmed in this case were going about their lawful business when drones with missiles attacked them from the air. Fisherfolk with their children on beaches were fired upon by people who could see whom they were killing. The house of the Chief Medical Officer in Gaza was levelled. Ambulances were fired upon. Some people in a refugee camp, advised by the Israelis that they should evacuate their house did so, hiding under a nearby tree, whereupon that was attacked instead, killing the whole family.
They are now being attacked with tanks that fire rounds of ‘flechettes’ — essentially 35mm nails 5000 at a time against massed civilians.]
My main point was that if you are going to argue by way of comparing situations you should do a fair comparison. All you do here is to reiterate your original position.
[ (b) Did MH17 fire 1,000 plus rockets at whoever happened to be under the rockets?
Not relevant. The attack on MH17 was an atrocity, but the atrocity in Gaza is one in which we know for sure that the aggressors, the regular forces of a technologically advanced state are deliberately doing murderous collective punishment.]
If you are doing comparative analysis then you cannot ignore that MH17 was a threat to no-one, whereas HAMAS is firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilans.
I repeat: if you are going to do comparative analysis then you have to take all the relevant issues from BOTH incidents – not cherry pick the items that suit your view.
[feeney
Dick was my member’.]
Crude.
Perhaps Cameron , if he is going to “knife” (to borrow a Ruddista line) the Qld leader , should at least have the decency to change his surname to Richard or something else less graphic.
[If he declares it an act of terrorism people are eligible for up to $75,000 compo from the government.]
Which may be less than a claim for loss of life against an airline or its insurer. By declaring it an act of terrorism all other claims are worthless. This is why he ran away at a zillion mph.
badcat
Thanks for that info!
I have a real problem with his brother – arrogance abounds.
[Which may be less than a claim for loss of life against an airline or its insurer. By declaring it an act of terrorism all other claims are worthless. This is why he ran away at a zillion mph.]
Yeesh. Doesn’t exactly instil confidence that he’s across the situation. If his mouth puts him in danger of making a mess of things, perhaps he should reel in the announcements, let the investigations commence and proceed, and give updates when there’s actually something new to say.
Ambulance chasing for political capital is not a good look.
[The Straits Times @STcom 4m
JUST IN: #Ukraine agrees to send all #MH17 bodies to Netherlands, reports say]
Will Tony intervene to a 4 star in there somewhere?
[I am with you Putin’s treatment of the Palestinians is utterly disgraceful.
]
Look, I am one of Putin’s biggest critics here, but the Palestinians’ current problems are largely the result of Hamas and other jihadist cretins.
Putin has mostly been silent on the recent Israeli/Palestine stuff and his involvement is limited to propping up the regime in Damascus, which if anything, hinders Hamas and other Islamic extremists.
[Darren Laver
Posted Monday, July 21, 2014 at 6:43 pm | PERMALINK
feeney
Dick was my member’.
Crude.]
I was more concerned about the placement of the apostrophe. Did I get it right?
kezza2@470
I suggest you read the tweet and engage your brain before flying of the handle.
There is military action underway around Donetsk. The tweet is saying this is not in the area of the crash site.
Abbott would be better to make act of grace payments of $75,000 to each affected person. This still allows them civil court redress. From memory it is $225,000 per person for shooting down a plane in the Vincenze case.
[suggest you read the tweet and engage your brain before flying of the handle.
]
I am loathe to agree with bemused, but Kezza certainly needs to calm down and make more measured reflections.
Any PBer’s familiar with Rabbi Weissmandel’s writings?
Yeah, Jihadists are cretins, on this I agree!
However, never discount the power of propaganda.
The problem in Palestine is not a one sided affair.
Just glanced at about 5 Travel Insurance’s general exclusions.
All have an exclusion with such words as terrorism, war, warlike activities, civil wars, insurrection, military actions, revolutions.
It would be my guess that whatever Abbott says, these poor families will get zero from insurance.
Abbott’s classification of the event as “terrorism” and the automatic $75K from the government would probly be advantageous to them.
In the long term there will be a successful class action.
ruawake@487
Travel insurance policies AFAIR provide much more than $75,000 in the case of death.
Abbott should STFU and do nothing to prejudice any such payments.
Abott probably thinks offering compensation is a good thing. But he is a Tory and they put a price in everything.
If it was me I would rather have my loved one than money.
I fact I think it is poor taste to even raise the matter.
BW
[My main point was that if you are going to argue by way of comparing situations you should do a fair comparison. All you do here is to reiterate your original position.]
My comparison drew upon the most salient considerations.
[(b) Did MH17 fire 1,000 plus rockets at whoever happened to be under the rockets?
If you are doing comparative analysis then you cannot ignore that MH17 was a threat to no-one, whereas HAMAS is firing thousands of rockets at Israeli civilans.
I repeat: if you are going to do comparative analysis then you have to take all the relevant issues from BOTH incidents – not cherry pick the items that suit your view.]
That’s not relevant here. Firstly, the rocket fire from Hamas is a response to being occupied and regularly brutalised. The missiles cause very few casualties and very little damage, especially since the Iron Dome defence system has been in place.
But in any event, the MH17 atrocity was a one-off atrocity that may well be the result of an act of criminal stupidity and which few would have predicted. Israel bombing Gaza is something one expects on any given day. In between that time, most of what Israel does to the people in the occupied territories gets scant if any reporting here. It has taken deaths in the hundreds to get above the typical levels of interest, and now this aircraft downing has once again diverted attention onto something of apparently greater interest to westerners at a time when the Israelis are escalating their assault.
And yet, unlike MH17, where there’s very little that western attention can do to achieve an end to the suffering of the bereaved, the west might, if it wanted, bring an end to the Israel-Palestine conflict by simply isolating Israel until such time as it chose to negotiate a viable agreement with the Palestinians.
Darren Laver@488
Relax Darren, agreeing with me doesn’t hurt a bit.
Why, I sometimes even agree with you. 😀
[From yet another coup in Thailand to student protests in China, riots and civil unrest are dangerous. Wandering around streets full of excited people or when grenades are being thrown around (true story) really isn’t a good idea, and you’re probably not covered if you could have reasonably avoided the unrest. You definitely aren’t covered if you take part and get hurt.]
Is the attitude of most insurers. Abbott is cutting this option off. Nuff said on the subject on my behalf.
For those who like pictures, this one compares the results of an Israeli rocket attack and one from Gaza …
https://twitter.com/sidatsalim/status/491009821370777600
psyclaw@490
Who will the class action be against?
Surely not another victim, MAS?
The secessionist rebels? Good luck.
Russia? No hope.
[@DawnHFoster: Daily Mail helpfully explains royal sprog takes after his relatives, who have also learnt to walk. http://t.co/5iYGfaem6D%5D
Even if Hamas are everything some of you say they are, the responsibility for the deaths of the civilians lies squarely on the shoulders of the people who pulled the triggers. As Fran pointed out, they are using flechette shells, designed to spread out over a wide area to annihilate enemy forces in vegetation, in built up, urban regions. If they are, as so many apologists claim, trying not to kill innocents, then they are surely not trying very hard.
Four young boys killed playing on a beach.
Four more children killed by an airstrike playing on the roof of a building, because the Israeli pilot missed the hospital he was attempting to strike.
A father showing a Guardian journalist the remains of his two year old son, as he tried to find enough pieces to fill a shopping bag.
It is disgusting. It is abhorrent. And there is no justification for it. None.
Hamas is a terrible organisation. Their approach to their religion appals me. The argument though that it is okay to kill the people living under their yoke is indefensible. The true militants are, it seems, well trained and armed. How are children supposed to stop their rockets? How are ordinary people supposed to prevent them storing weapons on their street?
It’s victim blaming of the worst sort.
lizzie
My sons dread buying Christmas presents for their female cousin because is means entering ‘the pink aisle’ of the toy shop….