Tuesday, November 24
Comments thread troublemaker Frank Calabrese has caught the attention of The West Australian’s Inside Cover.
Saturday, November 14
The Fremantle Herald reports Gerry Georgatos is forming a new party he proposes to call the “Real Greens”. Such a name would certainly not be permissible under the Commonwealth Electoral Act, but the state’s Electoral Act does not contain a provision equivalent to that prohibiting a name which “a reasonable person would think suggests that a connection or relationship exists between the party and a registered party if that connection or relationship does not in fact exist” (which was designed to disqualify Liberals for Forests and others like it). Georgatos also disputes Lynn MacLaren’s denial last week that she had been behind the preselection of Hsien Harper, saying she had previously admitted this to him.
UPDATE: I’ve been provided with a more in-depth version of the same article, presumably from the Melville or Cockburn version of the Herald.
Sunday, November 8
The Sunday Times reports Georgatos will be directing preferences to Labor:
Labor candidate Peter Tinley’s chances of winning the Willagee state by-election have been boosted, with independent Gerry Georgatos giving preferences to Labor at the November 28 poll. Mr Georgatos, who unsuccessfully sought pre-selection for Willagee for the Greens, said apart from himself, he believed Mr Tinley was the best candidate. He said Greens candidate Hsien Harper was a “good person”, but he believed Mr Tinley was a better candidate. Mr Georgatos denied giving Labor his preferences as payback for not being pre-selected.
Friday, November 6
This week’s Fremantle Herald features a letter from Greens MLC Lynn MacLaren (right) in which she rejects claims the branch meeting that preselected Hsien Harper was stacked, saying the party’s “consensus decision-making” means “branch stacking isn’t possible”. One who begs to differ is Steve Walker, who has told the paper he quit because of “the appalling dishonesty and branch-stacking within the party”. Notwithstanding that he is no longer involved with the party, Walker claims the Willagee preselection was “all the handiwork of Lynn”, whom he labels “the Brian Burke of the Greens”. The paper also corrects its assertion last week that Walker’s gripe had been that he was overlooked for preselection in Fremantle at the expense of Adele Carles – his aspirations had in fact been for the South Metropolitan seat currently occupied by MacLaren. Walker then proceeded to run as an independent, and lodged an above-the-line preference ticket which was punitive with respect to MacLaren personally: while her Greens running mate Scott Ryan was put second, MacLaren was placed behind all major party candidates (since MacLaren was elected anyway, the real impact of his votes was to help elect the Liberals’ Phil Edman ahead of Labor’s Fiona Henderson).
The Herald page linked to above also profiles Christian Democratic Party candidate Henri Chew, and informs us a candidates’ forum will be held at 7:30pm on Wednesday, November 25 (three days before the by-election) at Melville Senior High School’s performing arts hall. There are ads in the paper for Hsien Harper on page one and Peter Tinley on page three, scans of which appear below.
Friday, October 30
The hugely eventful comments thread for this post has made headlines, providing source material for the front page lead story in this weekend’s Fremantle Herald (the Georgatos letter referred to at the end of the scanned article is an edited version of this comment). At issue is the manner in which Hsien Harper was installed as Greens candidate at the expense of Gerry Georgatos, who was preselected earlier in the year when it was felt Alan Carpenter might join Jim McGinty in allowing for a by-election on the same day as the daylight saving referendum in May. Georgatos indicated he was in favour of nominations being reopened when Carpenter did eventually pull the plug, but “party insiders” cited by the Herald say he was “pushed into the decision”. Hsien Harper’s backers got the better of the ensuing preselection meeting, prompting opponents to complain it had been stacked. Georgatos subsequently nominated as an independent, and was promptly forced out of the party.
The sidelining of Georgatos is believed to have occurred largely at the instigation of Lynn MacLaren, member for the corresponding upper house region of South Metropolitan. As the Herald puts it: “About 20 unhappy supporters have since been venting spleens on the Poll Bludger website, with one saying ‘okay, like the others I am a Green – [Lynn] MacLaren and [a] few others knifed him’.” It has been said that Georgatos was felt not to have paid his (metaphorical) party dues; that the campaign might suffer from what one aggrieved comments thread contributor describes as his “outspoken qualities”; and that a candidate with Harper’s union background would in any case be a better bet in a traditional Labor electorate like Willagee.
The dispute also appears to have opened old wounds relating to Adele Carles’s recruitment as candidate for Fremantle at the 2008 election, with some in the party said to have unhappy memories of her as an independent rival to erstwhile upper house MP Jim Scott when he ran in Fremantle in 2005. The nomination of Carles came at the expense of Steve Walker (UPDATE: Or so the Herald reported, but it appears not – see below), described by the Herald as a “founding member” and “loyal warrior for the Greens in various campaigns”. Here too tactical motivations were thought to have been in play, with Carles’s professional background, conservative presentation and young family greatly assisting the party when it sought to win over the Liberal voters who ultimately decided the by-election in her favour (UPDATE 2: The Fremantle Herald confirms it erred in linking Walker to the Fremantle preselection in the next week’s edition – see the entry above).
The ABC’s Peter Kennedy writes about the by-election here, and discusses it here. I’ve also scanned in a full-page Labor ad from the Fremantle Herald – click on the thumbnail to the left for a full view.
UPDATE: Minutes later, Greens convenor Scott Ryan responds:
There are substantial errors of fact in the Herald article that are repeated on your site. Steve Walker did not attempt to pre-select for the State seat of Fremantle in 2008. Adele Carles was preselected unopposed. Steve had already left the party after unsuccessfully nominating for South Metropolitan, choosing to contest that as an independent. Any suggestion that Walker was dumped for Carles is entirely fictitious.
I am not aware of any discomfort over Adele running as an independent in the same election as Jim Scott. She ran on coastal issues and to the best of my memory swapped preferences 2-2. If there are some members who have “unhappy memories” of this, I can of course not rule it out – though it’s nothing I’ve ever heard expressed in years of service to the Fremantle Greens.
As for the remainder of the story, The Greens have not attempted to officially respond to the comments on the site and will not be drawn into debate on that level. Allegations contained within are simply preposterous and delusional.
I have personally maintained communication with Gerry and he maintains that the process was fair and appropriate, and that he was not pushed into re-opening nominations.
I realise that what is said can never be unsaid and perhaps the original posters simply had no idea how damaging their comments would be to Gerry’s campaign and to ours. I am disappointed that the Herald has resorted to cut-and-paste journalism without the fact-checking step in between.
Thursday, October 22
Nominations have closed and the ballot paper order has been drawn, with a modest field of four candidates. Intriguingly, one of the four is Gerry Georgatos, who earlier gave every indication of being relaxed about the re-opening of Greens nominations which ultimately saw him make way for Hsien Harper. The ballot paper order runs Henri Chew (Christian Democratic Party); Peter Tinley (Labor); Hsien Harper (Greens); Gerry Georgatos (Independent).
Wednesday, October 21
The Greens have preselected Hsien Harper, an organiser for the Community and Public Sector Union who ran in Willagee at the 2005 election. Harper was also the party’s candidate for Maylands at last year’s state election, and at the Murdoch by-election earlier in the year.
Sunday, October 18
The Liberals confirmed on Friday they would not be fielding a candidate. The Greens have issued a statement to clarify their reopening of preselection:
The Fremantle-Tangney regional group of The Greens met on Tuesday the 6th of October to discuss opening of nominations for Willagee, selecting a 2-week process for nomination and selection. This process will conclude at a meeting on Tuesday the 20th of October with the selection and announcement of a candidate. Prior to the Fremantle by-election, the Greens chose to not only pre-select a candidate for Fremantle but also for Willagee, expecting a small chance that Alan Carpenter may resign at the same time as Jim McGinty. As this did not occur we elected not to announce the candidate publicly, thinking that it may be seen as an arrogant, provocative or disrespectful move. The candidate selected at the time was Gerry Georgatos. Seven months have passed since the original process, and while there is no question of validity in the previous process, the political landscape has changed somewhat after the victory in Fremantle. Many new members joined in the surge of enthusiasm and the overall chemistry of the party feels a little different. With these issues in mind a proposal was put to the Fremantle-Tangney group to consider re-opening nominations. Gerry himself was joint author of this proposal, stating to the Fremantle Herald (Oct 3) “I feel that I should not hold [the branch] to a decision made seven months ago and would rather ask the members if they want more input. The Greens and I do business differently to the [other] political brands – it’s got to be participatory democracy or there isn’t democracy”. Gerry intends to nominate again as part of the new process.
Tuesday, October 13
Chalpat Sonti of WAtoday reports November 28 has been set by Speaker Grant Woodhams as the date for the by-election (hat tip: Frank Calabrese).
Monday, October 12
The ABC TV news reports, from sources unnamed, that the by-election is believed likely to be held on November 28.
Saturday, October 10
The Fremantle Herald reports Greens state convenor Scott Ryan saying the party will “open up the preselection process again”, despite having preselected “university guild manager Gerry Georgatos” in February when it was thought Carpenter might head for the exit to allow for a by-election on the same day as the daylight saving referendum.
Wednesday, October 7
LATE: Paul Lampathakis of the Sunday Times reports Peter Tinley has been unanimously preselected by Labor’s 16-member administration committee.
EARLY: The ABC reports there are five candidates for Labor preselection: the aforementioned Tinley and Hume, “Labor branch officials” Tony Toledo and Greg Wilton, and Stephen Dawson, former chief-of-staff to Carpenter government Environment Minister David Templeman. Rewi Lyall in comments hears the latter has been endorsed by the party’s Left caucus. Contra the Fremantle Herald, David McEwan is not on the list.
Friday, October 2
The Fremantle Herald reports two further candidates for Labor preselection: Dave Hume, who made a quixotic run against Peter Tagliaferri for the Fremantle preselection and is currently a candidate for Hilton ward in the Fremantle council elections, and David McEwan, an “environmental lawyer involved in the campaign to stop the extension of Roe Highway through the Beeliar wetlands”.
Monday, September 28
Robert Taylor of The West Australian reports Dave Kelly has confirmed he will not be a candidate for preselection. That gives pole position to Peter Tinley, who it so happens lives in Beaconsfield – not in the electorate, but very close to it. Taylor further reports the Greens candidate is expected to be “lawyer and environmental campaigner Graeme McEwan”. CORRECTION: Had the wrong end of the handle here. McEwan is not a Green; Taylor does not say exactly what he is, but I’m presuming he’s a Liberal (although I would have thought it unlikely they would field a candidate).
Sunday, September 27
A report by Paul Lampathakis of the Sunday Times suggests I may have spoken too soon in anointing Dave Kelly as the likely Labor candidate: Peter Tinley, the former SAS officer and Iraq war veteran who unsuccessfully contested Stirling at the 2007 federal election, has confirmed he will nominate, and is the only potential candidate listed in the article. Labor state secretary Simon Mead is quoted saying the preselection will be conducted “within ten days”. The Lampathakis article quotes unnamed Labor figures lambasting Carpenter for not timing his departure to allow for the poll to be held concurrently with the Fremantle by-election and daylight saving referendum on May 16; relatedly, Rebecca Carmody writes in the Sunday Times that Alannah MacTiernan should “do the right thing” and go now so that the Willagee by-election can coincide with one for Armadale.
Friday, September 25
Former WA Premier Alan Carpenter has just announced on the ABC’s Stateline program that he will resign from parliament next Friday. This will initiate a by-election in his safe Labor seat of Willagee, located just down the road from the Poll Bludger’s humble abode in Fremantle. Likely Labor candidate: Dave Kelly, state secretary of the Liquor Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union.
For non-local observers excited by the prospect of a by-election in the seat neighbouring Fremantle, I have assembled a few stats for cold shower purposes. Unfortunately, the census figures are based on boundaries from before the one-vote one-value redistribution – Fremantle’s would still be pretty accurate, but Willagee would have gotten a bit wealthier. “MFY” stands for median family income.
| WILLAGEE | FREMANTLE | |
| ALP 2008 | 51.7% | 38.7% |
| LIB 2008 | 30.9% | 30.2% |
| GRN 2008 | 17.4% | 27.6% |
| ALP 2005 | 47.9% | 43.8% |
| LIB 2005 | 25.1% | 26.8% |
| GRN 2005 | 9.0% | 17.1% |
| Professionals | 17.7% | 29.2% |
| MFY | $1,137 | $1,313 |
| Mortgages | 35.0% | 26.9% |
| Family households | 65.5% | 56.9% |
| Public housing | 33.6% | 19.6% |
[And here’s Peppermint Grove… oh, for god’s sake. Undivided council, 4 vacancies, 6 candidates:
They might as well have drawn names from a hat.]
Actually, according to the figures you’ve posted, the biggest gap was between the 4th and 5th placed candidates. So looked at that way the result was reasonably decisive.
Thanks Sine E. Cool, not being resident in WA I don’t always see things like that.
With the decision expected tomorrow, is there any news about candidates for preselection other than Mr Georgatos?
There’s only two candidates for Greens preselection: Georgatos, and Hsien Harper, who contested Willagee in 2005, but ran in the Murdoch by-election in 2007 and in Maylands in 2008, so has evidently moved around a bit.
As for the council elections, having come from the east coast, I’m amazed at how lopsided some of these races are. In my local ward, there were six candidates for three vacancies, two of which were right-wing wackaloons that had no chance, and only one who actually sounded like a great candidate. Nearly made me wish that I’d run myself – in that pack I might’ve gotten elected!
Unlike William, though, I’m not terribly surprised that Wainwright got himself elected to Fremantle council despite being a socialist. Wainwright cut his teeth in the Labor Party, and did himself a lot of favours during his by-election campaign; he comes off a mile better than any other socialist that I’ve ever run into.
I wanna hear goss. I’ve actually met both Green candidates, both years ago: I’ve grumbled about Georgatos before, and Harper is a friend of my old flatmate down in Coolbellup so I’ve met her a few times too. I’m hoping for Harper… who gets up will depend on how many ex-Murdoch guild kids from the cult of Gerry live local and are party members. That whole dynamic (Gerry’s kids vs those annoyed by him) made guild elections interesting and kind of annoying for my last couple of years there.
Meez heard along the “rotting grape-vine” that Harper got up.
Confirmed that Harper has been preselected.
Methinks Ms Harper is suffering from a case of Adeleitis:-)
[Ms Harper says she will be campaigning against the extension of Roe Highway.
“I think that we can give Labor a very serious challenge and we are a credible alternative to the old parties, on the back of our outstanding wins in Fremantle,” she said.]
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/21/2720567.htm
oh a Community and Public Sector Union organiser.. ooerrr
Anyway the CPSU is a ‘girly’ white collar union, not a ‘manly’ union like the AWU.
😀 😛 😀
So much for The Greens pre-selecting a local candidate 🙂
[An experienced industrial advocate, Hsien currently lives in Maylands but has previously lived in the Willagee electorate for 10 years. She worked at Cockburn City Council as a Youth Development Officer before taking up a position in the Australian Services Union (ASU) as an Industrial Organiser. She currently works as an Industrial Organiser for the CPSU/CSA, the union covering the majority of state sector employees.]
http://wa.greens.org.au/willagee-preselection
…indeed.
It doesn’t do the Greens any favours to preselect people who don’t live in the electorate – let alone perennial candidates. Willagee’s the sort of seat where, while the Greens’ll never win it, running well-known locals might get the party a pretty nice share of the vote.
Well, when you don’t actually win that many seats I guess it’s to be expected that the people who contest them will want to keep on trying… 😛
As I wrote in this thread earlier, being local is only part of the equation and can be outweighed by actually being judged a person worth having as a representative.
As an aside, I notice that facebook keeps on suggesting I become a friend with Hsien Harper on the basis of the number of mutual friends we have, but I don’t think I’ve ever met her.
It would seem that there’s more to this Greens preselection process than we’ve been told.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/22/2721682.htm
Gerry Georgatos is standing as an independent candidate for Willagee.
[It would seem that there’s more to this Greens preselection process than we’ve been told.]
I reckon he’s been put up by either the Greens and/or the Libs to do so and idrect preferences to the Greens.
And I reckon the Christian Democrats guy will get all the orphan Liberal Votes.
Maybe Frank, but it doesn’t seem like the best way to pursue that kind of a strategy. Why go through all the bother of a preselection process if that was the strategy all along?
This has more of the whiff of disaffection about it.
The Greens press statement says that the motion reopening preselection was jointly authored by Georgatos. Does anyone know who the co-author/s was/were?
[ And I reckon the Christian Democrats guy will get all the orphan Liberal Votes. ]
Not with an ex-military guy running for Labor… CDP will probably get the combined far-right votes of CDP / FF / One Nation / CEC, and that’s about it. None of those parties ran in 2008, either.
It’s interesting that the Greens are running a union person and Labor aren’t, especially in a working class seat like Willagee. Harper’s certainly better placed to make any anti-worker antics of Buswell an issue if she wants to. Could end up with a Freo-type situation where Labor pick up Liberal voters at the expense of their own folks who jump to the Greens. Unlike Freo, Labor would still most likely win if that happened.
As for the Gerry thing… christ that’s weird. His kids would probably vote Gerry 1 Greens 2, but it has the potential to get weirder.
Well, that was a bit unexpected.
I did smell a rat when I heard that the already preselected candidate was proposing to reopen preselection, while standing in the new ballot – it sounded like Green spin. The co-author was one of the MLCs – from memory, I think it was Lynn MacLaren. I think it’s sad that Georgatos has decided to run as an independent, since he’ll undoubtedly finish a distant third, and I gather in doing so he’s burning his bridges for any future run.
Tinley’s clearly going to win this one by a mile, and I suspect the Liberal vote’s likely to splinter between all four of them. I can’t see terribly much going to the CDP – Willagee doesn’t strike me as good territory for them, and I suspect it’ll be much like Fremantle, where they were essentially the comic relief. Consider me surprised if they poll anything other than fourth.
I don’t think Harper’s union status is going to make any difference – she’s from outside the electorate, and she doesn’t have any notable profile within it. She may be a very nice person, and she might well be a great MP if she got elected, but the fact is that she’s essentially a generic Green candidate. The Greens do better when they nominate well-known locals (witness Fremantle and Mayo; both candidates who had solidly built a public profile in the previous election); this just shows that we can cock things up as well as Labor or the Liberals.
[ this just shows that we can cock things up as well as Labor or the Liberals. ]
You can, and you almost did. Trust me on this, not going with Gerry was a very wise move. The guy would not have been good news.
Meanwhile, carn Harper. She may have moved out of the deep south so lost the “this is a local shop for local people” factor, but she’d make a good MP anyway. Certainly less troublesome.
Gerry running as a so-called “independent”…polleez!!
Get real…this is without a doubt a strategy by the Greens (be it a hair brained one or not) to sure up as many second preferences as possible.
Once a dugong lover, always a dugong lover!!
Does anyone – even Frank – really think that any party considering running a “fake” candidate would use:
a) a party member…
b) … who is well known in the community as a member…
c) … and ran for preselection…
d) … and made sure the local papers knew he was running for preselection…
e) … and didn’t get preselected
as their “stooge” to “secretly” harvest preferences?
Come on, people, is this not supposed to be a forum for intelligent debate?
Well I was trying to be polite about it…
believe it or not Sarge….the Greens play politics as well, all be it 1970’s style.
Someone like Gerry doesnt stop being a Green jus cos he didnt get preselected…..it all smells of dugong to me!
Stooge candidate? Heh… Gerry probably thinks he can win.
My picks: ALP 55, Greens 35, Georgatos 5, CDP 5, with ALP 2pp ~10%. I really can’t see a way Labor won’t win an absolute majority. Then again, I remember figuring Tagliaferri wouldn’t have many problems in Freo, so maybe I’m a pessimist. If Labor get under 50% it’s probably curtains for Eric Ripper as leader.
And then… a Belmont by-election perhaps? The Libs would have to run, as they’re more likely to win than the Greens (yeah, Cloverdale looks like Coolbellup, but seriously…) and the prize is a Lib-Nat majority. More fun. 🙂
You are probably close with the percentages but I reckon it will be like Labor 48, Greens 25, Georgatos 20, Chew the rest. Georgatos is very popular. I don’t understand your problem with him. I know him and I am older than him so I am not one of his ‘kids’ Bird. He is probably one of the most decent people I have ever met and he helps everyone. The things he has done just are incredible. I have to admit I am a Green and I was at the preselection and Gerry was screwed over. The guy was fantastic in the debate and was so much better than Hsien. He has knowledge on the tips of his fingers. Yet he was screwed over by a Green MLA who we can’t figure out exactly why she did this and the meeting was stacked. It wasn’t unanimous and some of us were really pissed off with the Greens bigshots after Gerry’s phenomenal win and presence in the debates and questions. Gerry did express his surprise and disappointment at the decision and Hsien was too very surprised. Some people have a concern with Gerry that he is too outspoken and too headstrong in achieving things.
Bird I don’t know you however you were at Murdoch you say so it sounds your just one of these people ticked off by Gerry but Bird Gerry is a real genuine person who has achieved so much for Murdoch students, Aboriginal people, community, in so many things it is unbelievable, he even organised for hundreds of wheelchairs to Iraq and thousands of computers to the poorest, the guy takes on everyone who is too slow to act and many of us love him for his passion, and he does have haters, the big shots he has pissed off but that’s what happens to people who achieve like he does. He made a big mistake turning down Labor who wanted him and he has been stabbed in the back by the Greens. Gerry was hurt but was gracious with Hsien but I think he feels that the Greens in effect are no less dirty than Labor and the Liberals. I felt so sorry for him as he would make the most incredible politician.
The Greens have killed themselves off in this election by throwing in Hsien who isn’t known like Gerry and Gerry is loved by many in Willagee. I think you should do some research on this guy that you seem to be ticked off by. For all his haters he would brought in thousands of extra votes and maybe caused the boil over. What have we done?
I Wonder if the Greens have similar rules regarding previous or unsuccessful endorsed Candidates running against the endorsed candidate ?
[4.7.2 A member who nominates for Parliament against an endorsed ALP
candidate automatically ceases to be a member of the Party unless
prior approval for his/her nomination has been granted by the
Administrative Committee.
4.7.3 A member who campaigns against an endorsed ALP candidate for
Parliament automatically ceases to be a member of the Party
unless prior approval for his/her campaign has been granted by the
Administrative Committee. ]
http://www.wa.alp.org.au/download/now/rules2009.pdf
Crimson @ 124…..but I thought the Greens did this kinda stuff by consensus?!?!?
From what your saying, the Greens can play grubby politics just like the rest of them. Wot gives?
Keep it comin Crimson 😉
My recollection as a former Greens(WA) Secretary is that decisions are largely by consensus. Explicit exceptions include selecting office bearers and preselecting candidates for public office. The Constitution may have changed since the olden days. Depending on the urgency of the precelection the process can vary. I’m in the UK so I’ve got no idea what really happened. i know Hsien and am sure that she will be an excellent candidate.
Of course there are presonalities and egos in the Greens! Just deal with them a little differently. 🙂
Many people have been poisoned by past lives in dinosaur parties like the ALP, Liberals, Australian Democrats and od little lefty one. 😉
Ha! thats funny disaterboy……of cors the Greens are special and do things better than anyone else.
All this moral high ground, “holier than thou” stuff from the Greens is a little boring and past its use-by date….those so called “dinosaur parties” stop using those lines decades ago.
Crimson has pointed me to this blog and it is really sad reading some of this. I am a Green also but maybe not for much longer. Yes it is true Gerry was screwed over just like Crimson says and in the dirtiest ways.
Like Crimson I’m not one of Gerry’s kids so we don’t understand the criticisms of this man, he is a fantastic man, a great human being. To some people he is a ratbag but as one person described him once in a speech that I have never forgotten he is the great big ratbag with the gigantic heart. He loves people and does whatever he can for them even his enemies.
It’s true Gerry was the best candidate. I wasn’t at the preselection but others have told me. Crimson’s account is correct. I read Gerry’s candidate statement and Hsien’s candidate statement and Gerry’s statement was magnificent and on the mark with so many things. I was one of the people that encouraged Gerry last year to become a Green member and join us at Fremantle. He was hesitant as he does not think that highly of political parties and argues the Constitution so refreshingly and is a crazy idealist. I respect him for it. I told him how different the Greens are and that there is democracy and there aren’t big egos and the pollies are accountable to the members. I never forget his words, “Are you sure there is no club house mentality within the Greens? Why would they be any different in this regard?” Well Gerry has turned out correct.
We don’t know exactly why Maclaren screwed him over but it has served to make Gerry distrust even the Greens. Mr Orange is correct and Disasterboy is wrong, the Greens pollies on their 150,000 salaries have forgotten democracy. You see Gerry is this idealist guy who lives honour to the fullest even though he knows the world is not that honourable.
Hsien has not attended a Fremantle meeting in years and all of a sudden she is parachuted in to contest the endorsement. Hsien is now going for her 5th or 6th campaign but she isn’t anywhere near Gerry. Gerry is a human rights activist, advocate, he has worked miracles over the years and is the most articulate and powerfully speaking man you will ever meet. He does outshine others and we think that maybe the Greens party room is worried about this but we desperately need this in parliament if we want to capture the imagination of people.
It is true Gerry is detested by some and they are only those whose toes he has tread on, and they call him pushy and a bully and maniacal but because of this he has changed the world for so many people. I love Gerry, I love his humanity, I love his kindness, I love his forgiveness, I love his sacrifices, his unending passion, his energy, his inspirational qualities. This guy has emptied out his wallet to help others in dire need. More important is like Crimson and Rebecca write that he would make a fantastic MP. Well he will never be that now because the Greens did backstab him and it’ll be tough for him to go to Labor, who want him.
Labor powerbrokers and politicians are surprised that Peter Tinley isn’t taking on Gerry and they’re all saying it. Labor and Liberal politicians know Gerry and both would love to have him on their teams. Gerry is possibly one of the brightest people in this country. The man is a big stuff and with a big heart.
Gerry doesn’t use his life and the things he has done to get himself nominated or elected and maybe he should but I know why he doesn’t and I respect him. If you knew where he has been and what he has seen and what he has overcome and achieved you could only look up to him.
Last year he won the state’s Community Person of the year award for his outstanding achievements, for helping so many people and yet he refused to speak about the people because it is their private lives. This man ekes honour, it runs in his veins. It is all he ever talks about, the ‘moral ground, that example is everything, that honour comes first’.
I don’t feel as sorry for Hsien as Crimson does. Hsien is okay but she was parachuted in and she knows Gerry should be the candidate and that everyone should be behind him. I feel like crying for him but for all of us who will lose this saint of a man who has the brains that most of us don’t and the courage to stand up to other even when they call him every name under the sun.
Yesterday I learned that Gerry resigned from the Guild and will not be here next year and I hope his terrible experience with the Greens has nothing to do this because this man has admirably managed the Guild in its crises while at the same helping people, doing fantastic things and remaining the courageous political voice that he is.
If Harper and Tinley want the best MP for Willagee they should do what Gerry would have done and they should step down and allow Gerry in unopposed to do what he has always done, do the job and inspire so many.
There is chaos among the Greens right now and many are worried but they should be embarrassed for what they did to this incredible person, to Gerry Georgatos. If he is outspoken then I love him for it. If he is in people’s faces then I love him for it. If he has courage to stand up then I love him for it. So should have the Greens and if Maclaren and a few other long term sneaks in the Green let the members make their choice then Gerry Georgatos would be one step away from where he should finish up for us.
Crimson and I understand that Gerry resigned from the Greens the other day. We don’t know if he was forced into it or given no choice, he wanted to remain a member even if he did contest as an independent. Gerry spoke well about many of the members of the Fremantle group.
Gerry’s problem is he will never be a dirty person, a dirty politician, he will never be a sneak. I do know that he is totally dejected by the politicians in the Greens and their powerbrokers. Gerry does not accept dishonesty, he is pretty tough on this.
I have had my rant. I felt everyone should know the truth. Labor is happy Gerry is not the candidate. The Greens need to sort themselves out and Maclaren, the party room and the convenors should have a good look at themselves.
It has surprised me that Gerry hasn’t brought them to task, he is usually the first to expose nastiness but maybe it’s got to do with the fact he is involved or maybe he is totally dejected at last that he is going soft.
I will dream of the impossible of Willagee voting Gerry in and defeating the Greens and Labor combined. Unlike Crimson I don’t expect Gerry to get 20% because he is alone, no campaign team and Gerry would never abuse things and use his support base, you will do it his way, the hard way. He may get 10% but no more but for one person as an independent that’s bloody amazing if he does.
Like Gerry I too thought so much of the Greens during the last couple of years. Gerry, I am sorry that I was one of those that talked you into joining the Greens.
Mr Orange you are right the Greens are not holier than thou. They too have dinosaurs and the self obsessed and they too play dirty.
Like crimson and mesha, I think this really stinks.
Hsien Harper should be using her time to actually build up a profile so she can stand a chance of putting the Greens in line in Maylands, which should be a good area for the Greens. There’s just no excuse for parachuting her into a seat she doesn’t live, when she’s a perennial candidate, over the top of an obviously qualified person who would have at least helped the Greens to a solid result.
I really hope mesha is wrong and it wasn’t MacLaren who knifed Georgatos, but if it is I’m bloody disappointed and I’ve got no clue why. If Georgatos can get his act together and run a proper campaign, I’ll be very tempted to go down and campaign for him.
129 Mesha
Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Nothing you said seems to be at odds with what I wrote. I’m in no position to agree or disagree with what your opinions. I don’t know George and I had no involvement in the process.
Perhaps when I wrote that the Greens do things differently, you read that, as if I meant necessarily better. I didn’t mean so. 🙂
Reading between the lines, if George is not bitter, maybe there is some personal reason that makes him unsuitable as a party candidate? I hope that there really was nothing malign, but it certainly happens in the Greens. It happens in all organizations, you just have to try to minimise it.
It will be interesting to see how each of the candidates recommend that their supporters place preferences…
[ Reading between the lines, if George is not bitter, maybe there is some personal reason that makes him unsuitable as a party candidate? I hope that there really was nothing malign, but it certainly happens in the Greens. It happens in all organizations, you just have to try to minimise it. ]
Maybe so. I’d add further that sometimes stuff that happens behind the scenes does so for a reason… it’s probably one of those times, eh. 😉 If Gerry didn’t have the biggest ego this side of Malcolm Turnbull (and a cheer squad), none of this would even be an issue.
Mesha etc: jeez, enough with the Gerry love-in… I feel like I’m back at uni dodging guild election spruikers. I got tired of hearing about the miracles he hath wrought pretty soon after seeing the first GERRY poster in Bush Court, and I remain so.
Sounds like a load of sour grapes to me. My sources suggest that Georgatos had almost no support in the meeting – and that Hsien was decided by consensus, a consensus that included Georgatos. As to being a GWA member and running against an endorsed candidate that could well be considered grounds for expulsion. The GWA Constitution states in respect of this:
12.1 Representatives Council has the authority to censure, suspend or expel a Member or Associate for conduct which is detrimental to the interests of The Greens (WA).
…and leaves it entirely up to the Reps Council how it may interpret this. Certainly it has happened before at a local group level, but with the person resigning before they could be expelled (on a side note, the same thing has happened here in NSW).
While we’re here, I note that Georgatos doesn’t live in the electorate either – hell, none of the candidates do (including Tinley). So maybe his preselection loss had more to do with something else in his background that was maybe not seen as a plus for his candidacy??
…a nomination that was decided by consensus, a consensus including the dumped candidate who then quits the party and runs as an independent?
I’ve seen the Greens get away spinning internal conflicts before, but that’s about as ludicrously transparent as they come.
To the bird person, no issue with you but you the hell are you to shit on Georgatos? Do you know him or are you ticked off because like you say a ‘poster’ of him ticked you off? I too know Gerry and he is the man, a top man. Bird I think I know you who you are and you actually don’t know Gerry, more of him so how about getting to know, you and him both have some things in common except maybe that he is really as left leaning as they come.
Let us look at Gerry’s record during the last 5 years only and forgot all the humanitarian work he has done life long! He put together the biggest computer recycling program in Australia. 50,000 computers he has donated. Is that something or what? He put together Students Without Borders and has students all over the world. What a beautiful experience? Because of him schools get built, health centres get built. He has put together something like two hundred campaigns. Wow.
Most students at Murdoch respect him for the work, and the courage that goes with, that he has done. He has never sucked up to no one and maybe that is a fault of his. He will never get a job with the rich and powerful because he has stood up to all of them. It’s the Gerrys of the world we need. He has changed laws. He works on sexual abuse, violence, domestic violence, racism and he is smart enough to be able to change things, to be listened to by those that matter.
Throughout Willagee he is known. He is well liked by many. He is known throughout the state, and in many places throughout Australia. He is known in Canberra. People also fear him because of his knowledge and his virtues.
Okay, like the others I am a Green. Maclaren and few others knifed him. They did it because he might be too big an inspiration for them to handle. It’s egos in the end. I laugh at bird that Gerry has an ego, if the one thing that Gerry should have that would serve him well is an ego, but he doesn’t. This is his undoing. He is the least ego person I know, the most forgiving and kind person. He has seen to much in his life to have an ego. Those that get to know he makes all of them feel good, empowers them.
Stewart, Gerry resigned from the Greens under some rule that he couldn’t contest against an endorsed candidate. Stewart, the meeting had 34 members there. 15 had never turned up in the last couple of years. They stacked the meeting to get Hsien up. The others were for Gerry, those that turned up every week, except for some odd ones who were concerned about his powerful profile and that he is too big a person. The convenor, Scott, lost the plot with the show and allowed Maclaren to run havoc. Gerry and Hsien had left for a coffee during the discussion of candidates. People argued that Hsien read off papers, wasn’t up to it, didn’t match Gerry, didn’t have Gerry’s knowledge, but they agreed that Hsien was a long term party member, and would listen to party protocols. It’s not that Gerry hasn’t but that was the type of bullshit bandied.
Everyone knew Gerry had whipped in the debate and questions and is probably the most articulate person the Greens have yet however Maclaren and few were concerned, about his persona, the bigness of the man, and his candidness, outspoken qualities. They destroyed the best chance the Greens have of a super politician. Gerry is someone that throws himself into everything with gusto.
Gerry has never failed anyone. Bird if you asked him for help he’d help you, he would not fob you off.
A recent example of Gerry was noted at the meeting that night. Where Greens politicians failed to help an Aboriginal person in a matter with government Gerry sorted it himself within days with government.
Gerry was the best candidate. Gerry should have been the endorsed candidate for Willagee. Maclaren and a few long timers did the wrong thing. They also lied to him about it. Gerry is destroyed by all this but he isn’t going to turn it against the Greens and has decided to believe that the Greens don’t want him and he has sadly left the Greens.
Stewart it was not consensus. Some wanted to go to ballot but they allowed Hsien to have it because the meeting was stacked by 15 of her supporters and some from the party room. Hsien has not been part of F/T for years. This was her first meeting! She shouldn’t have agreed to do this. This could undo the Greens for a while. It’ll all get out even if Georgatos never speaks about it. Because a number of us are leaving the Greens to campaign for him if he will have us. He stands no chance as an Independent, that’s the nature of it, he’ll get 5%, bird is right there, but the greens will not get more than 20 to 25%… After what they’ve done if they don’t get 40% they have failed in this election. There are no Liberals.
That is the record straight. Gerry is great and good man. Gerry is better than Hsien and better than any standing Green pollie. Gerry was knifed by Maclaren and other long term members. It was not consensus. Gerry and Hsien were not present when the decision was made. Both Gerry and Hsien were stunned when it came in. Many were apologetic afterwards. Some have left the Greens.
The Greens stink.
What spin? If Gerry and his supporters had wanted to go to a ballot they could have, but maybe they thought it would be better than it being described as a “thrashing”. Anyway, it further sounds like Gerry wasn’t that committed a Green, just wanted to get into Parliament, with who-ever would preselect him. Maybe in that case he thought he’d just walk away and nominate anyway? Like this hasn’t happened before in other parties? I stand by the local party members in making their preselection decision – I’m sure they considered the various why’s and wherefore’s, so I’d rather trust their view of who better reflects the values and policies of the party than that of ranting spruikers.
I take back my comments about Gerry being a “stooge” candidate!
I think the above Greens laundry airing/internal shit-fight, well and truely proves I was mistaken….makes for interesting reading tho.
Hackism isn’t an attractive look, whether it comes from Labor or the Greens.
Georgatos has a huge record of community involvement in the Willagee area, and a deserved profile with a lot of Willagee voters. Harper’s a blow-in perennial candidate with senior mates in the party, who would have her arse handed to her even if she was contesting the *more* Green-friendly electorate in which she actually lives since she has no profile outside the party.
It’s pretty low to accuse a respected activist of “lack of commitment” for walking away from the party in disgust, and attacking party members as “ranting spruikers” for being pissed about his treatment is the sort of garbage I expect from Labor.
Hi Everyone,
There are four candidates in this election, Henri, Peter, Hsien and myself. Elections need not be, nor should they be, about the candidates as much as they should be about the issues. Where the candidates do matter is in their ability to understand and represent the issues to the constituency and to the various tiers of government.
I have solid regard for Peter and Hsien and there are a number of issues that we agree need to be addressed and certain issues that need to be addressed in certain ways. I don’t know Henri, however I hope to hear the issues that concern Henri and the CDP and for us to appropriately engage in legitimate discussions. Ideally, we will succeed as candidates if we can actuate public discussions and debates on any number of issues and hence raise awareness levels, and more importantly on what needs to be done.
It is not constructive for people to argue rather it is beneficial, and equitably socially inclusive, for us to come together in a bona fide discussion of the issues that have settled at the heart of society.
Let us discuss social and economic justice, equitable living and other social standards, public housing, rental and housing affordability, access to education, health and services, improving the criminal justice system, eliminating all forms of discrimination and racism, let us properly discuss and assist asylum seekers, let us discuss the endemic and pervasive crises such as climate change, the rising sea-levels, the impacts of these sea-levels on the world’s poor, Copenhagen and the pursuance of the ‘350 ppm’ and whether as a target this will be sufficient, the concerns we have over uranium mining and nuclear power, let us discuss renewable energy programs, let us consider the current weak Emission Trading Scheme proposals, and amongst all these we have to consider industrial relations, job security and propose high minimum standards and accountable maximum standards to contract, as a quotient, the economy so as to include everyone.
Let us not worry as much about the candidates as we should the issues and let us wisely coalesce our energies and productively invest our thinking much more into the issues – and in terms of the candidates, at best assess how they understand these issues and in what knowledge they possess in terms of being able to deal with them. If we concentrate on the issues, we will discover the qualities of our candidates and any additional merits. If we concentrate on the issues we shall ensure pathways to inculcating social justice, human rights and appropriate community development.
Peter, Hsien and Henri are very good people. We care enough to put ourselves out there to raise an awareness of social issues that matter, issues which may require remedy. In terms of Willagee I am sure that Peter, Hsien and I already agree on a number of issues, such as the impact on biodiversity that the proposed Roe8 extension ‘shall’ have. Let us question the warrants of this proposal and whether we need this highway option. I do not believe we need it in any form whatsoever.
We need to engage in various discussions and ensure the cultural waves, and with expediency.
We are just people, never more or less, and arguing with one another is not in anyway worthwhile. It delays progress. It was MLK Jnr who said, “A right delayed, is a right denied.”
These blog sites are a perfect forum to continue to unfold our human rights language, to unfold social justice movements, to ensure we use citizen media to reach out to one another.
It does not matter that Hsien lives in Maylands. It does not matter if I’ve just relocated to Harrisdale. It does not matter that Peter lives in Beaconsfield (though this is as close as!), and it does not matter that Henri lives in Success. We care, and this is what matters. Peter is a local and has been for long enough, Hsien lived in Coobellup for ten years, and I lived in Kardinya for 10 years, and Henri is SOR. Let us return to the issues and to what we know about them and to what you have to raise about them.
Kindly, Gerry Georgatos
(So, on the assumption I don’t breach any WAEC regulations, I’ll do the Written and Authorised bit – by Gerry Georgatos, 9 Arion Avenue, Harrisdale, 6112) – However, I wrote on this blog site, with my heart on my sleeve, which is who I am, in the hope that there is less derision, and that we can move away from unnecessary comments to a focus on the issues. Primum Non Nocere (First Do No Harm)…
Thank you Gerry, good luck with your campaign.
Rebecca – I defend my party – if thats hackism, then so’s being a member. And I still stand by the local members – the rank and file – in their decision. If you’d like to suggest that a local group doesn’t have the right to select candidates go right ahead, and I’ll suggest that’s no different from the ALP N40’ing in candidates (good and bad as they may be). But it’ll hardly be local democracy. As to lack of commitment – that’s lack of commitment to the party, not to his causes. I’ve seen too many people come into the party, not get preselected (no matter how good they are) and then go off and find another vehicle for their issues. So it seems with Gerry – and good luck to him. I’m sure he’ll find himself working besides other Greens along the way.
Lastly, I regard the rants on here from Gerry’s supporters to be just that – sour grapes rants. Yes, I’ve been in their position, its not nice and you can feel pretty pissed off. So decide whether to stay and continue working on the things you think ARE important or move on. In that Gerry is a far better spokesperson for his cause than they as that’s what it appears he’s advocating.
I am also a Greens WA member. I have met Hsien many times over a number of years and have no doubt she will make an excellent candidate and MP if elected. I can’t say that I know Gerry but that might be due to the fact that he is a relatively new member.
However Gerry did nominate for Senate pre-selection earlier this year running against Rachel Siewert. That nomination went to ballot by all WA members and personal statements were provided by both candidates. To put it kindly Gerry’s statement was not very well written. I was not at the Willagee pre-selection meeting but if I was I would have voted for Hsien.
If Hsien wasn’t living in the Fremantle district (regional groups are based on Federal electorates) then she wouldn’t have been going to meetings there but may well have been going to meetings elsewhere. I have often seen her at Representative Council meetings (monthly) but I don’t recall which Group she was representing.
Only 4 candidates? Pffft.
Hey Rossco you always do the greens political spin. What are you doing pretending you’re just average joe Rossco. This really stinks that you’re online putting in this stunt. By the way for the record Hsien has not attended rep council this year but Gerry has attended, so if you were at Rep Council in the last half of the year you would have seen Gerry and not Hsien. As you well know Hsien lives in Mayland and contest your fourth campaign last year in the state elections with the green friendly seat of Maylands.
To bullshit that Gerry didn’t do well with his candidate statement for preselection of the lead senate is sick. It was good. The whole senate selection stunk and this too has left a surprising distaste with Gerry and that is important because he was a member for year and new members impressions should be considered. Do we want to retain the members or lose them for the sake of the old hierarchy? Actually Gerry didn’t have a fair go at the senate. The greens party just plainly handed it to Rachel, another 6 year term. All Gerry did was try to keep the process at least there, that there was a test.
Gerry never had a chance to meet the groups, or reps, or get a forum together. Chapple contacted him two or three days out of quickly put together meet the candidates in Bunbury, Fremantle and Osborne Park and they weren’t plugged among the members, no one turned up to Bunbury but Gerry and Rachel drove down there, hardly anyone to Fremantle and several to Ozzie Park. What sort of process is this? How do we know Rachel deserved it when no one got to meet the challenger or no one was told about him? Lets get this right, the greens we are still both an elite and a club for the self serving. We don’t even check how our pollies are doing, we just clap everything they do, don’t question, we’re all so warm and fuzzy we don’t know… Personally I know that Gerry is the most articulate brain and he has genius qualities that make him a super politician, he is better than Rachel and Hsien and all the rest and we never let him get up.
Rossco in your little stunt online you claim you too would have voted for Hsien if you went to the meeting. Well you just proved how crap we as greens are. You would come with your mind done – not consider Gerry’s candidate statement that was better than Hsien’s, not listen to Gerry speak where he was refreshing and brilliant and honest and had the world’s knowledge and Hsien was abysmally terrible and yet you would vote Hsien. Right now you make me feel being Green was so stupid. They are right all those that say we’re a club for a few. The pollies are mates and they’ve helped each other, look at them and their relationships and how they scored their chance.
Rossco you would not look at Gerry’s record, his activism, his community work, his achievements, his contributions, but you would blindly vote for Hsien who has nothing to show for herself?
You and Stewart, even though you’re doing stunts here, internal spin, you make me feel ill with your blind loyalty and defense of the party, this is like I am back in Eastern Europe listening to the virtues of the party at all cost.
Not Carles, Siewart, Xamon, Ludlam, Chapple, and not Maclaren, not all of them put together are better pollies than Gerry. The greens stabbed a great and honest man in the back, someone who gave himself to the greens and you’ve all treated him like shit, shat on him and now you try and defame him.
I didn’t want to write this after Gerry wrote his beautiful very Gerry piece but Rebecca is on the mark, your hacks and if you can’t see the difference what a hack is from what someone who cares about the party is then you are sad little boxes. Crimson and Mesha and Rebecca know, as you should and probably do, of this man’s great work and who do you think you are to shit on it and blindly follow the flag?
The greens have shown themselves up as a charade and are right now worse than anything Labor and the Liberals have done during the last years.
Maybe Gerry will only get a hundred votes, I hope he gets thousands, but I will be one of those votes. I will vote for him because I listened to the candidates, and because I know their actual work and what they’ve done, not because they are mates or green or labor or whatever. Good on ya Rossco for in your stupid way you exposed the Greens for what they have become – grow up.
Grow up yourself “conservation-think first” – I don’t “sh*t” on Gerry’s work, but you do him no favours with your rants. As to “hacks” – great strawman argument there. The local group did NOT preselect him – thats called internal democracy. If you don’t think rank and file members should have a say then I would politely suggest you’re stuck in a bit of old thinking yourself. I don’t blindly defend the party (if you knew me, and you clearly don’t, you’d know why) – but I will defend it against blind stupid ignorant attacks such as yours. But clearly you wont hear any opposing views being expressed without just shouting them down with mindless abuse.
Oh, and Gerry, if you’re still around here, I noticed your extended policy commentary above. I would hope that you’d flesh that out in any candidate material you put out, as it seems most reasonable (I’m sure most others would agree). I would be interested in hearing how you will deal with rental and housing issues, as these seem to be intractable problems for Government (not that they necessarily are, just for Governments!). I’ve been involved in a couple of housing forums over the years, and would be interested in hearing what your thoughts on this are.
Occasionally you get people coming into The Greens who seem determined to make their way into parliament (or at least pre-selection), without much regard for the reality of party politics, of which The Greens has it’s own particular flavour.
Georgatos sounds a bit like that sort of person. That isn’t a value judgement, it’s just an observation. I personally don’t consider political ambition to be a negative trait.
In these cases it generally seems there is a disconnect between the persons approach and that which the party usually takes. They tend to be quite outspoken, and also tend to promote “mainstreaming” of party messages as a means to greater electoral success. They often have a history of personal success in one or more spheres, and feel that their personal approach to success would translate to the party quite well.
The reality of the matter is that to get things done inside the political system as a politician or a party requires a large dose of humility, which is almost entirely incompatible with the sort of bullish approach that get’s people places in business and in their personal advocacy.
It sounds like Georgatos would be stymied within the party structure if he was preselected and won, and I dare say he would not be as effective an advocate as he is as an individual or would be as an independent candidate or parliamentarian. At the same time he might have been an unsettling force within The Greens at a time when they are probably wanting to maintain and project stability.
I would suggest that whilst these factors may not have been made explicit at the preselection, this is the internalised pragmatic understanding of many members and it doesn’t take machinations from the “elite” of the party for it to come into their preselection decisions.
conservation-thinkfirst @143, I am at a loss to know what you mean by saying “you always do the greens political spin”. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else as I consider myself very much an ordinary member – going to meetings, doing letter boxing, doing HTVs, but I don’t do political spin on behalf of the party.
Further to Sam Bauers @ 146, I mentioned to an acquaintance early this year about joining the Greens as he is very much an activist who would be philosophically very closely aligned. He said he was thinking of joining and running for the Senate. I thought to myself well join but you really have no idea about what is involved in getting pre-selected. For example, this year he would have been competing for the No 1 spot with Rachel Siewert just as Gerry was. It is great that people nominate and make a competition for positions but there needs to be a dose of reality. Occasionally a party can parachute a high profile candidate in as a new member, or they might run as an independent, but generally you have to do the hard yards within the party structure to get preselected.
My acquaintance has not joined the Greens as yet and maybe he is one of those who can be more effective doing his own thing without the constraints of a party structure. Maybe Gerry falls in the same category.
I have no doubt Gerry has done great things through his role at Murdoch but how many of the Murdoch alumni live in Willagee?
Nice, some kind of picture is forming.
Seems that due Greens process was followed and that Gerry and his supporters had a chance or chances to have the consensus decision tested if they felt that was necessary.
Maybe someone did misrepresent him privately but you can’t prevent people from talking to one another.
The electoral system isn’t exactly classically Green. Means preselections have to have winners and losers rather than each person contributing with their strengths.
Gerry seems to understand this better than some of his supporters.
Good on him for continuing to get issues out there. Seems a shame that the party was not flexible enough to let him run as an independent and remain a member. Might have seemed like a spoiler or strategic candidacy, I suppose.
Housing policy? hypothecate CGT (from home sales) to purchase housing for the needy perhaps…, get the feds to send some more $ back to the states. Capital redistribution by taking speculative gain and redirecting it to need. 🙂
Looks like the old murdoch guild batwing monkeys that used to swarm any thread , all with remarkably similar grammar are still around and have turned up here. Its like the name Gerry is some sort of batman symbol that you can shine on a cloud whenever you need a bit more crazy in your threads.
Good old days…
Says a new commenter with a familiar looking IP address …