Redraw redrawn

The federal redistribution of New South Wales has been completed, with a final determination that turns up fewer surprises than the recent effort in Queensland. Antony Green has as always given the new boundaries the once-over; all margins quoted herein are as calculated by him.

• The commissioners have responded to widespread criticism of the original proposal to put the electorate name of Reid out of commission, the general feeling being that Australia’s fourth prime minister deserved better. It has been decided that instead of changing the name of its eastern neighbour Lowe to McMahon (which under the redistribution takes in 32 per cent of the voters from abolished Reid), it will instead change to Reid and the new name of McMahon will be given to Prospect, located further to the west.

• To maintain continuity with local government boundaries, the frequently redrawn Calare will recover the western shires of Parkes and Forbes it was to lose to Parkes, and lose the areas of Wellington Shire Council (including Mumbi and Neurea) and Mid-Western Regional Council (Mudgee and Gulgong) it was to gain from it. This is great news for Calare’s National Party member John Cobb, whose margin is now cut from 12.1 per cent to 3.5 per cent rather than the originally proposed 1.2 per cent.

• The vast interior electorate of Farrer, which was originally to remain unchanged, will now absorb a part of the Shire of Central Darling including Wilcannia from Parkes, with no impact on its margin. Parkes in turn will gain the balance of the Shire of Parkes around Lake Cargelligo from its southern neighbour Riverina.

• A transfer of 1100 voters in the north-eastern part of the Shire of Tenterfield from New England to Page has been reversed. This has been counter-balanced by the transfer of the Shire of Lachlan from New England to its western neigbour Parkes. The collective changes to Parkes cut the Nationals margin from 13.8 per cent to 13.6 per cent.

• A transfer from Hume to Throsby south of Sydney has been slightly clipped so the town of Bundanoon remains in Hume. Hume also has its gain from Macarthur further to the north expanded to bring the boundary into alignment with the Nepean River and Sickles Creek, adding Theresa Park, Orangeville and Brownlow Hill in Sydney’s outskirts. None of the margins are affected.

• A transfer around Duckenfield on the west-east boundary between Newcastle and Paterson has been reversed, returning that area to Newcastle, which has further gained the adjacent area of Millers Forest.

• There have been minor adjustments to boundaries betweeen Cunningham and Macarthur, which have been tidied with elimination of a salient that formerly extended into Macarthur at Darkes Forest; Grayndler and what will now be called Reid, the latter of which gains a few blocks of territory to keep Croydon within one electorate; Bennelong and Berowra, where a proposed transfer of 1900 voters in Beecroft from the former to the latter has been reversed; and to the new boundary between Blaxland and Parramatta (in territory previously covered by Reid), adding three blocks of territory to the former at Granville.

• Other adjustments are more incidental still: a transfer of the unpopulated Spring Hill industrial area north of Port Kembla from Throsby to Cunningham has been reversed; Hughes’s boundary with Cook and Cunningham has been altered to follow the Illawarra Railway rather than nearby roads; and the boundary between Mitchell and Parramatta will now follow North Rocks Road rather than nearby Darling Mills Creek.

Other news:

• According to the ABC, the decision to maintain the name Reid increases the likelihood that its nominal member, Laurie Ferguson, will seek to continue his political career through a preselection challenge against John Murphy, the member for what is currently called Lowe. Ferguson is demanding that the matter be determined by a local ballot rather than the state or national executive processes which tend to prevail in contentious circumstances.

• Thwarted in McPherson, Liberal MP Peter Dutton now confirms he will attempt to retain Dickson, which he earlier swore he wouldn’t do.

• Imre Salusinszky of The Australian reports “sources across all factions” agree that Macarthur MP Pat Farmer is certain to lose Liberal preselection at next Thursday’s ballot to former Campbelltown mayor Russell Matheson. It is further said by Salusinszky’s sources that Farmer, who dumped a bucket on his own constituents on election night and has since moved far away from them to the expensive north shore suburb of Mosman, is only running to be eligible for parliamentary superannuation granted to those who serve three terms followed by “involuntary departure”. Soraiya Gharahkhani of the Camden Advertiser reports Labor’s preselection for the seat looms as a four-way contest between Nick Bleasdale (local carpenter and narrowly unsuccessful candidate from 2007), Greg Warren (the deputy mayor of Camden), Michael Freelander (a Campbelltown pediatrician) and Paul Nunnari (a wheelchair athlete). Ben Raue at The Tally Room offers an informed overview of the local political situation. The redistribution has turned the seat from 0.7 per cent Liberal to 0.1 per cent Labor.

• The Courier Mail says the Liberal preselection for new Gold Coast hinterland seat of Wright will be “a five-way affair” involving Cameron Thompson, who lost Blair to Labor’s Shayne Neumann in 2007; Hajnal Ban, Logan City councillor and Nationals candidate for Forde in 2007; and Bob La Castra, Gold Coast councillor and former presenter of the 1980s children’s television show Wombat.

• Andrew Clennell of the Sydney Morning Herald reports the New South Wales Liberal Party is “talking about recruiting everyone from the former ABC broadcaster Sally Loane to the former right-hand man to John Howard, Arthur Sinodinos”. Loane’s services are reportedly sought in Coogee, while Sinodinos might replace the outgoing Peter Debnam in Vaucluse. Conservative Sydney Morning Herald columnist Miranda Devine is apparently not interested.

• Former NRL player Hazem El Masri has also reportedly been approached by the Liberal Party to stand in the ultra-safe Labor seat of Lakemba. However, Andrew Clennell in the Herald relates that “Liberal sources said yesterday they believed Mr El Masri would not agree to stand for Parliament”. Labor is also said to have its sights on El Masri, with earlier conjecture he might succeed Tony Stewart in Bankstown.

• The Progress Leader reports Graham Watt, the owner of a local carpet cleaning business, has been preselected as the Liberal candidate for Jeff Kennett’s old seat of Burwood, currently held by Labor’s Bob Stensholt on a margin of 3.7 per cent. Watt reportedly received 70 votes against 45 for former Hawthorn AFL player Steve Lawrence (who was given a reference by Kennett) and five for David Solly, IT manager and one-time Nationals member.

Author: William Bowe

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, has existed in one form or another since 2004, and is one of the most heavily trafficked websites on Australian politics.

811 comments on “Redraw redrawn”

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  2. Oh dear, enough to make you puke:

    Now:

    [Nelson was ‘outstanding:’ Turnbull, October 23, 2009 – 8:44PM, Brendan Nelson was a “courageous” and “outstanding” political leader, says his successor, Malcolm Turnbull…… Mr Turnbull thanked Dr Nelson for his contribution to politics, describing him as “an outstanding minister, an outstanding, courageous leader of the opposition”.]

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/nelson-was-outstanding-turnbull-20091023-hddb.html

    Then,

    [Turnbull to Nelson: toughen up, By Samantha Maiden | December 01, 2007 – MALCOLM Turnbull stormed into the new Liberal leader’s parliamentary office within an hour of Thursday’s leadership vote, tearing into Brendan Nelson over his “funereal speech” and urging him to toughen up.

    Surrounded by cardboard boxes and his staff in a temporary office, Brendan Nelson looked up.

    The Liberal Party’s campaign director, Brian Loughnane, was in the room offering congratulations, as was Nelson’s press secretary, former journalist Nigel Blunden, and his senior adviser, Simon Berger.

    Nelson’s newly elected deputy, Julie Bishop, had just left the room to freshen up her makeup for the leadership team’s first press conference, leaving the Liberal leader in his cramped new office with his staff when Turnbull stormed through the door.

    Nelson, touched by the support of his colleagues earlier that day, who backed him over Turnbull, had been moved to tears in the partyroom and was humbled by this moment of Liberal Party history.

    Turnbull was not. “That speech was funereal,” the multi-millionaire MP exploded, attacking Nelson’s rather sombre acceptance of the Liberal leadership. “You can’t do that again. You have to sound like the coach at half-time talking to a grand final team. You’ve got to toughen up.” ]

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22851340-601,00.html?from=mostpop

  3. For once I must compliment the Liberals for taking on Pat Farmer and facing some pre-selection battles. They shoudl do it more with all the non-performers. Likewise Slipper and Somylay should go in Queensland. They have to get new blood into winnable seats to have any chance in the long term. They can’t win the next election with Rudd, Swan and Tanner unassailable, but they have to think about what talent they will have to work with in parliament for the next 3 years.

  4. tomorrow’s tv:
    [8.00am – 8.30am Network Ten Meet the Press

    Paul Bongiorno will be joined on the panel by The Australian’s Jennifer Hewett and the Australian Financial Review’s David Crowe. Together they will interview:

    the Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy Senator Stephen Conroy , and

    Western Australian Greens Senator, Sarah Hanson-Young

    7.00am – 10.00am Channel 9 Today on Sunday – Laurie Oakes’ political interview

    After the 8.30 News on Today on Sunday, Laurie Oakes interviews Tasmanian Senator and Greens leader Senator Bob Brown.

    9.00am – 10.00am ABC1 Insiders

    On Insiders this Sunday Barrie Cassidy interviews the Foreign Affairs Minister, Stephen Smith.

    On the panel: The Age’s Misha Schubert, the Sydney Morning Herald’s Phil Coorey and News Limited’s Glenn Milne.]

    and
    [8.30am – 9.00am – Sky News Channel 601 Sunday Agenda
    (repeated 12.30pm and 9.30pm, also available on SkyNews Active)

    This week on Sky News Sunday Agenda Helen Dalley interviews Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration.Senator Concetta Fierravanti-Wells, Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Immigration.]

    wtf? the best they could do was get Neo-Connie?? talk about scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
    And Mike Bowers talks pictures with former SMH columnist Alan Ramsey.

  5. Althouhg the employment focus in Adelaide was on the risk of Mitsubishi (gone) and Holden (at risk) closing, the closure of Bridgestone is almost as important: 600jobs gone
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/23/2722878.htm

    With the high dollar likely to persist, this will not be the last such news. We need to retrain these people into new industries like mining and defence.

    For those interested, from an Adelaide-centric POV I don’t see the point deliberately trying to push industries into the southern suburbs. Put the industries where they can survive, then provide transport to those places. Electrifying the trains to Noarlunga will help. Expansion of Flinders Uni and medical centre would be a better source of jobs in southern Adelaide. They could redevelop the Mitsubishi site as a mixed use office/residential TOD to generate more survivable jobs.

  6. Grog or anyone who knows

    What sort of ratings does Fox news actually get? How does it compare to commercial broadcasters? Do these panels make much impact?

  7. [Imre Salusinszky of The Australian reports “sources across all factions” agree that Macarthur MP Pat Farmer is certain to lose Liberal preselection at next Thursday’s ballot to former Campbelltown mayor Russell Matheson. It is further said by Salusinszky’s sources that Farmer, who dumped a bucket on his own constituents on election night and has since moved far away from them to the expensive north shore suburb of Mosman, is only running to be eligible for parliamentary superannuation granted to those who serve three terms followed by “involuntary departure”.]

    William, three terms…?

  8. [They can’t win the next election with Rudd, Swan and Tanner unassailable]

    I don’t *think* Labor will lose, but remember, no election is unwinnable or unloseable 🙂

  9. [This is systemic problems for the Liberals. Their reputation is well known and precedes them. Rudd can therefore in rhetoric move to centre and centre right knowing that nobody left of this would vote for the Liberals.]

    This sort of talk makes being disaffected and disenfranchised seem a good thing!

  10. ABC radio this morning doing a story on the asylum seeker boat that made it to Canada were talking to some bloke from Singapore.
    Presenter started by saying could Wilson Tuckey be right about terrorists on the boats then while talking to the guest stated again could Tuckey be right then, then a couple of more times during the interview managed to get in could the boats in our area be carrying terrorists.
    The Singapore guy wasn’t taking the bait plus his accent made him a bit hard to understand.
    How low can their ABC go, trying to give credence Tuckey’s racist rants now are they?

  11. The ghost of John Howard stalks this issue and is what he will be remembered for: inhumanity, lies, fear-mongering, division and shame. He really will be recalled as one of the worst of leaders: a splitter.

  12. The Archangel Chris lectures St Kevin:

    [The narrow gate (for Rudd) was to make a complex argument, to explain what he was doing, and to try to change the tone of Australia’s debate about asylum-seekers. The wide path was to play the hard man and tub thump.]

    What is it with these failed priests? First Abbott and now Uhlmann are antsy about Rudd muscling in on their Holier Than Thou franchise. There are many ways to God, guys.

    Chris would have just lerved St. Kevin to pursue a “complex argument, explain what he was doing, and to try to change the tone” of the Immigration debate. Then he could have written column after column on how Rudd was a moralising wonk who used funny words with too many syllables, when what the Australian people really wanted was and end to boat people arrivals.

    Rudd would have been wearing his heart on his sleeve. It would have been a whole pack of cards that was ready to come tumbling down. St. Kevin fiddles while Christmas Island burns.

    Instead, the only option was for the ex hard men of the right to become the new Bleeding Hearts of the… what? St. Kev seems to be everywhere at once. Hard like a wingnut and soft like an Anglican vickar. He’s not just occupying the centre ground. He’s got so many feet on so many floor tiles he’ll be needing a third leg any day now.

    All his opponents can do is re-argue old lines, even bringing back the “hidden terrorists” theme which, I am disappointed to say, has been given much more air time, especially on the ABC, than it deserves. Oh well, probably all for the best. It just shows how loopy the arguments can get when you don’t have access to the Central Scare Campaign boutique. You have to make do with K-Mart.

    The main thing probably about any ex or would-be terrorists coming here from Sri Lanka is that they don’t want to turn Australia into part of the Tamil Caliphate, won’t be blowing up Town Hall station and are unlikely to be delivering truck bombs to Holsworthy army camp any time soon. In fact, if they’ve gone to so much trouble to get here, the most likely outcome will be that they turn into good little Aussies with kids that do well at school, like the millions before them. It’s usually the ones who get the easy ride who can afford the luxury of planning to blow up the country that gave them a new home, and there’s only a precious few of them, many now resident in the Supermax wing of Goulburn Gaol.

    And Sharman’s line on Insiders about taking a few hundred thousand Congolese before we opened the door to boat people took the cake. Was she serious? Was Barrie Cassidy serious when he let her say it without a follow-up question? I guess they both were. That’s how silly the whole thing has become: old themes, old ideas that used to work, recycled over and over again, because they have nothing else. For a lazy Coalition front bencher, and a columnist who thinks he’s a player, it sure beats workin’.

    If Howard’s old marching ong doesn’t get the toes a’tapping, try the softer samba Labor used to play. Every where they go, though, there’s the grinning mug of St. Kevin, popping up like so many cardboard cutouts held up by so many Coalition members, once upon a time.

    While the whole country breathes a sigh of relief after dodging the GFC bullet the punters – the ones whose jobs and businesses were saved – can afford to be a little forgiving of any small inconsistencies the bloke who saved them has shown. The more he gets it right on the economy, the more they tend to trust him on other things, without having to bother themselves with tortured moral analysis, or knee-jerk xenophobia. Let the pundits and the Coalition pollies – the ones hardly anybody reads and the other mob that got voted out last election – do that.

    Rudd is having a conversation with the people. He’s cautiously covering all the bases. The weekly polls give him the feedback she needs to trim his arguments. Hot air from the moralisers denies the following facts: that that no-one (least of all Kevin) is perfect, all threats – political and territorial – have to be at least considered and accounted for (even so they can be dismissed) and that Rudd is not really John Howard Lite (he only sounds like it sometimes). The overriding thing about Rudd is that he’s not going to sacrifice the opportunity to do good things for Australia by prematurely hrowing it all away on a sidetrack issue that’s all been thrashed out before.

    Which brings me to the one thing Uhlmann said I do agree with…

    [There is a lot to be said for moral arguments. One of the problems with deploying them is that they are impervious to compromise.]

    A few around here who are calling for Rudd’s head seem to agree with The Archangel Chris. The moralising and pontificating from some posters at PB about what Rudd should be doing, or is doing wrong, are thick in the air. You’d almost think they’d rather have the other mob in than dilute their principles one whit.

    Personally, I think that we probably need more people with true grit – like Boat People – to liven up our gene pool here in Oz (of course, if I was a politician I couldn’t say that, but then I’m not a politician). We’ve done pretty well, by and large, following that line in the past, letting people stay who’ve risked their lives to come here, as long as they leave the nasty stuff behind.

    But we have to do it in an ordered way. We have to at least make a show of trying to stop it, or regulate it. That’s a dip of the beak in both cups, I guess, but a firm foothold in the middle between them. Let the others, like Uhlmann on one side and Tuckey on the other take up the few remaining (if marginal) outliers. Even better, let them rant and rave and then, when pressed, have no alternative plan. Empty vessels making the most noise and all that. If some of the lefties here don’t get the hypocracy of that position, I’m pretty sure – judging from the polls – the voters do.

    It’s a democracy, after all.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,26251222-7583,00.html

  13. BB

    First of all, it just have to point out that the word is “hypocrisy”. I seldom point out spelling errors (as I will inevitably misspell a word when I do it) but the use of the word “hypocracy” is so common here that it was time to do so.

    I followed your argument all the way until this last paragraph. The left has offered many alternatives, and even if they hadn’t, their failure not to do so would not constitute hypocrisy.

    [Even better, let them rant and rave and then, when pressed, have no alternative plan. Empty vessels making the most noise and all that. If some of the lefties here don’t get the hypocracy of that position, I’m pretty sure – judging from the polls – the voters do.]

  14. I might as well add that “the left” have suggested that Australia manage boat refugees in the same way that basically every other developed country does, which is without mandatory detention and without excising part of our territory as an immigration zone.

    After all, that’s what we do for the much larger numbers of refugees who arrive by plane.

  15. Insiders needs to bring back their poll summary that they included weekly before the last election. Might bring some context and perspective to the discussion as they, predictably, talk about how much pressure Rudd is under re: asylum seekers

  17. BB – A well written treatise, as usual 🙂

    But in the end no more than an emotional defence of politics over ethics. The Human Rights Commissioner points out that this supposedly admirable political strategy in which Rudd keeps or increases his vote has the inconvenient truth that he is denying suffering people their basic human rights in terms of the UN charter.

    People arriving by boat are being treated abominably. People arriving by plane are not. The reason – politicians playing to low xenophobia among us.

    We are talking about the basic well-being of refugees. Remember the first ethical question should be : “What ought we do?”; not, “How can we best protect our poll numbers?”

    [THE Human Rights Commissioner, Catherine Branson, has criticised conditions on Christmas Island and demanded the Rudd Government stop detaining people there immediately. She also slammed the Government for its failure to overturn laws that excise thousands of islands from the country’s migration zone.
    …
    Ms Branson said people who arrive by boat have less legal protection than those who arrive by plane.
    ”Asylum seekers should not be penalised because of their method of arrival,” she said. ”The excision and offshore processing regime establishes a two-tiered system.”
    The Howard-era laws excising the islands should be overturned immediately, the commission’s 2009 Immigration Detention and Offshore Processing on Christmas Island said among 22 recommendations.
    The penalising of people who arrive by boat violates Australia’s international obligations.]

    No amount of “the other mob would be worse” rhetoric changes that.

  18. jv

    For some reason it is masterful and the right thing to do for Rudd to be Howard-Lite on this issue for political reasons/expediency, but when you point out that he is therefore Howard-Lite ethically there is all this angst. The Laboristas can’t have it both ways.

  19. [You’d almost think they’d rather have the other mob in than dilute their principles one whit. ]

    Personally I think there is far more “true grit” in someone prepared to stand by what they believe in than there is in playing it safe and simply backing the government even though you don’t agree with it. Do you really want this government to be the same as the former where the principled MPs prepared to speak up for their beliefs were marginalised? And nor do I think that speaking against the government is necessarily indicative of wanting the other mob in.

  20. On a different note, the Save The RAH Party has been officially registered in SA as a political party. They are going to run for the Upper House and have said they will also target marginal seats, presumably Adelaide and Norwood. I think it depends on how many people they get who are prepared to run as candidates.

    BTW Do you have to resign as a public servant before running as a candidate or only if you get in?

  21. Reading through the papers this morning, (in Melbourne), about half the editorials/opinion pieces I’ve seen are pretty well fed-up and disgusted with both sides of the asylum debate…

    …and it was the Tuckey claim + Rudd’s kick-back combo that seems to have done trick.

  22. Diogenes
    Yes, to avoid the ‘h’ word, let’s just say there are some of those “ol’ double standards” creeping in the defensive skirmishes on behalf of Rudd among the party faithful (it’s SO good to be totally uninvolved in any of the parties. 🙂

  23. Diogenes – What do you think of this in NSW? The local area health service seems to have been heavily involved in this decision, and behind that it has the fingers of the NSW government’s right-wing religion bloc all over it:
    [Doctors vetoed on late-term abortion
    A WOMAN was denied a late-term abortion at a leading Sydney hospital, forcing her to carry a severely deformed foetus with no chance of survival for an extra week, in a decision that has infuriated senior doctors.
    The doctors at the Royal Hospital for Women in Randwick are angry senior management vetoed their clinical decision and have called for clarification.
    …..
    Other specialists told the Herald they feared a clampdown on abortion within state public hospitals. The NSW Government was anxious to avoid a backlash from people opposed to abortion generally or to late-term procedures, they said.]
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/doctors-vetoed-on-lateterm-abortion-20091023-hdcb.html

  24. [BTW Do you have to resign as a public servant before running as a candidate or only if you get in?]
    Before running I believe – federally anyway. I remember George Newhouse in Wentworth got into all sorts of strife in 2007 trying to prove he’d resigned from a public sevice position prior to running for the ALP.

  25. jv

    Public hospitals are increasingly run for the benefit of politicians not patients.

    The wishes of the patient are paramount and we don’t get much of an idea of what she and her partner wanted so it’s hard to comment further.

  26. [After all, that’s what we do for the much larger numbers of refugees who arrive by plane.]

    Shh, a lot of conflicting logic has gone in to forming an apparently coherent argument for all the follow-the-party-line Labor supporters!!!

    😀

  27. A love in between Dio and JV – how sweet.
    Jeez it must be great to be able to suggest measures that go against the mainstream and say bugger the political consequences.
    This idea that it is somehow wrong to argue that the otherside would be worse is a crock. If you’re happy to see them in, given their track record, then go for it. We know what hey’re capable of. Hell they keep on reminding us of it.
    Rudd has his opponents arguing he is soft and hard. What a genius.

  28. Shh, a lot of conflicting logic has gone in to forming an apparently coherent argument for all the follow-the-party-line Labor supporters!!!

    Re – enter comedy relief.

  29. [On a different note, the Save The RAH Party has been officially registered in SA as a political party. They are going to run for the Upper House and have said they will also target marginal seats, presumably Adelaide and Norwood. I think it depends on how many people they get who are prepared to run as candidates.]

    I should form my own Save The RAH Party – the platform being to build a new hospital at the new site and call it the RAH – save referring to it’s reputation. We need a world class hospital here. The RAH looks like and is a disease-filled relic.

    [BTW Do you have to resign as a public servant before running as a candidate]

    Correct. Remember this?

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/21/1195321822861.html

  33. [Throwaway one-liners are much easier than a real response.]
    bob, I’ve learnt from a master. Your one liners aimed squarely at the Labor faithful never stop.

  35. [bob, I’ve learnt from a master. Your one liners aimed squarely at the Labor faithful never stop.]

    PB isn’t exactly filled with Liberal faithful is it?

  36. It’s so easy dare I say to sit on the sidelines and critise feeling proud of yourself for not supporting any party so you will never be taken to account 😉
    That damn guttless Rudd they scream, worse than Howard, won’t close all the powerstations overnight, wont set ETS targets at 40%, such a heartless coward that he’s afraid to shut Christmas Is and take in anyone who arrives on our shores!
    Boy, I can’t see him lasting, one term wonder him!
    Now where did we put Cossie?

  37. [Can’t a person take soft and hard stances on different issues?]
    Absolutely. You can be soft on one issue but hard on another. But The same issue? I don’t think so, not with any cred anyway.
    Come on bob, is Rudd soft or hard on asylum seekers?

  39. GB

    [This idea that it is somehow wrong to argue that the otherside would be worse is a crock. If you’re happy to see them in, given their track record, then go for it.]

    Just because the other side would be worse, it doesn’t follow that your side is right.

    The argument that you can’t criticise Labor because it help the Libs is frankly abysmal. First of all, we are more critical of the Libs. Secondly, it’s just a cheap way of avoiding any dissent about Labor’s performance. You NEVER have to argue your case if you follow your logic.

    It’s a variation on Bush’s “you are either with us or against us” logic. It creates a false dichotomy of black and white.

  43. Socrates @3

    [For once I must compliment the Liberals for taking on Pat Farmer and facing some pre-selection battles. They shoudl do it more with all the non-performers…They have to get new blood into winnable seats to have any chance in the long term.]

    True enough…but Macarthur is very marginal…as has been mentioned before, Liberals need to tackle the safe seats – B. Bishop, Ruddock leading the list here.

  44. [Come on bob, is Rudd soft or hard on asylum seekers?]

    I’m not positive but i’m pretty sure nobody on the right thinks Rudd is too hard on asylum seekers…

  46. [Diog, Need any help getting the splinters out of your bum]

    Diog, serve you right, trying to mess with the Amigo.

    Could be worse than the splinters :kiss:

  47. [Just because the other side would be worse, it doesn’t follow that your side is right.]
    It follows that you’d prefer to have your side in power than the other. It also follows that your side is on the right track being “more right” than the other side. It is a valid point of view.
    To right off the argument “the otherside is worse” as just an argument used so that “you can’t criticise Labor because it help the Libs” is also frankly abysmal. There is more to it than that.

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