The latest Newspoll survey has Labor’s two-party lead down from 56-44 to 55-45, with Malcolm Turnbull enjoying a dead cat bounce on his personal ratings after the disaster of a fortnight ago. Turnbull’s approval rating is up six points to 31 per cent, while his disapproval is down three to 55 per cent. However, Turnbull continues to rate behind Peter Costello (36 per cent) and Joe Hockey (20 per cent) on the question of best person to lead the Liberal Party, with 16 per cent. What’s more, Essential Research finds 46 per cent believe the Liberals should find a new leader against only 29 per cent who want Turnbull remain. Essential Research otherwise shows a modest improvement for the Coalition, with Labor’s two-party lead down from 59-41 to 57-43. Also featured are questions on the “most important action” of the Rudd government so far (action on the global financial crisis leads a crowded field), opinions on the government’s income tax cuts (positive) and a somewhat obscure question on education policy.
[That would suggest that Labor under Chris Watson in 1904 was the furthest “left” Labor has ever been.]
I’d say pre-conscription-split Labor was the most left Labor has ever been, with the possible exception of Chifley, but that’s debateable.
In my personal opinion Rudd seems to the left of Hawke and keating on Economic issues. If we had a labor prime minister to the right of Keating then i am sure by now a body such as Australia Post would have already been at least partially privatised.
650
Most of the ALP PMs and leaders would have an apoplexy at the idea of the ALP selling the Commonwealth Bank which was created by the Fisher government to be a bank owned by the government/people rather than private shareholders. The current ALP is not pro-nationalisation and previous ALP governments have been (pre-Whitlam).
[I’d say pre-conscription-split Labor was the most left Labor has ever been]
That’s because you’re defining “left” purely in terms of economics, which really means whether Labor was “socialist” in terms of favouring state control of the economy or not. On any other possible index of “left”, such as social policy, Labor is miles to left of where it was before World War I. Do you want to defend the leftness of the White Australia policy? Of Labor’s attitudes to women at that time? Of its treatment of indigenous people? I dare you.
[Most of the ALP PMs and leaders would have an apoplexy at the idea of the ALP selling the Commonwealth Bank]
They would have had apoplexy at abolishing the White Australia policy, too. Times change, policies change. But not for the Greens, obviously, who apparently think Australia should look something like Cuba – everyone equally poor.
[On any other possible index of “left”, such as social policy, Labor is miles to left of where it was before World War I. Do you want to defend the leftness of the White Australia policy? Of Labor’s attitudes to women at that time? Of its treatment of indigenous people? I dare you.]
There’s 3, not 2 axis’. Economic, social, and moral/traditional values.
There are too many axis being ground here.
[There’s 3, not 2 axis’. Economic, social, and moral/traditional values.]
The plural of axis is either axes or axises.
Anyway, what about foreign / defence policy? I would say the three broad areas of policy are
* economic policy / industrial relations
* foreign / defence policy
* social policy (health education environment)
I don’t what “moral/traditional values” has to do with it. They can be *applied* to any of three policy areas.
655
Continued public ownership of the Commonwealth Bank would not cause or have caused our economy to rot. It would mean that the government could have less profits more lending during the credit squeeze in the last year or so. The Government should now use the Australia Post outlets to set up a new public bank (and not sell it). The Greens as a party and the vast majority are not from the communism style equal poverty brigade but they do want a greater degree of fairness in the distribution of wealth.
Muskiemp @ 647
Indeed I did watch AS on Peter Andrews. There’s been quite a “green farming” shift to his ideas around here for quite some time with some spectacular results (esp during the drought). As I’d done some research on the quite different impacts of the Federation & Millennium droughts – the Fed drought was more serious (we have accurate temp & rainfall records) yet the land & population coped better; given the population was much greater (the av ‘self-sufficient’ station employed c125 people & supported their kids – blacksmiths, cartwrights, builders etc as well as stockmen, cooks, teacher/s), the opposite should have happened – I was part of some discussion groups.
Andrews’ approach includes returning creeks & wetlands to their earlier condition, using whatever is currently available (inc weeds & willow trees – hence the bureaucrats & Greenies’ strongly negative attitudes, for differing reasons – and natural composting). There’s also been considerable local growth in organic farming, in conjunction with Andrews’ approaches to creeks, groundwater & natural composting.
IMO, much of the problem with “The Greens” Greenies is that they are middle-class urban (often inner-urban), with no real understanding of where or what the problems are in non-urban Australia; ie most of the Continent. There are cures for salinity that don’t include War on Irrigators; solutions for the Darling Basin that don’t include Taking Away Water Licences. There’s a need to understand that one sees about as much of a river as one sees of an iceberg. But the greatest need of all is to minimise evaporation. There’s a need to understand that huge & increasing clumps of mature vegetation which either retains water, or returns it to the atmosphere (as big gums do) and absorbs atmospheric carbon to build roots, trunks, leaves etc are essential to reversing far more than salinity.
There are ways to reverse desertification; but they include (tho not exclusively) Andrews’ methods. There are ways of reducing bushfire hazards, but they include minimising vegetation which not only fuels but thrives on fire – many of the existing native species. To preserve good vegetation, we need to declare war on ferals: feral horses, buffalo, goats, camels, deer, foxes etc, as well as rabbits, cats etc. But no sooner does this start than the hysteria (especially urban hysteria) begins, and the ferals are free to continue their destruction.
The irony is that, if we ploughed the money into revegitating the continent, especially with species of low flammability, primarily to maximise water retention, reverse salinity, renovate our exhausted soils and reverse desertification, we’d just about cancel out (more than cancel out, in a few decade’s time) our coal-fire power stations carbon-gas (tho not particulate) emissions. But hey, a lot of people are only interested in closing power stations and mines – to hell with the natural solutions.
When one attends meetings in which groups are arguing for the re-creation of wetlands (is swamps), but also the removal of cattle “because of methane”, one know there’s something weird going on in some green circles. No wonder people are so critical of the quality of out science education!
[They would have had apoplexy at abolishing the White Australia policy, too. Times change, policies change. But not for the Greens, obviously, who apparently think Australia should look something like Cuba – everyone equally poor.]
Now, now psephos
What has cuba done to you
😉
[The Government should now use the Australia Post outlets to set up a new public bank (and not sell it). The Greens as a party and the vast majority are not from the communism style equal poverty brigade but they do want a greater degree of fairness in the distribution of wealth.]
Welcome to the 1920s. How would a state owned bank create a greater degree of fairness in the distribution of wealth? Would it hand out free money? Would it give interest free loans?
[Now, now psephos
What has cuba done to you]
Kept 11 million people in poverty and oppression for nearly 50 years.
Arguments about what’s left and what’s right are very tedious. The Australian Labor Party has always been an odd party in international left politics.
It was never particulalry ‘socialist’, though it did have a tradition of launching government enterprises to compete in monopolistic markets, especially in NSW and Queensland just before and after the First World War. Chifley’s attempt to nationalise the banks was a very strange deviation from the norm.
Nor was it ever particularly ‘welfarist’ in the European Social Democrat tradition. The NSW Unions opposed Lang’s introduction of child welfare for instance. Except for a brief period under Whitlam, Labor always supported means tested welfare.
The strongest ALP tradition has always been ‘labourist’, arguing for reasonable wage levels to support a wife and children. (Why the Unions opposed child welfare in the fear employers would cut wages as a result.) The unions rarely supported nationalisation but always supported maintaining high wages in the private sector.
You saw the continuation of that tradition in the 1980s with the Government-ACTU accord. And you also most of the larger private sector unions fail to back public sector unions in battles with the Hawke government. (eg everyone walked away from the Telecommunication Unions when they opposed the Hawke government dismantling the Telecom monopoly on telecommunication services.)
The various IR refoms under Brereton and then under Howard were an enormous challenge to the ‘labourist’ tradition by placing productivity central to wage settings. And the Howard government took a greater hand in welfare payments to support family dependants, removing another traditional aspect of ‘labourist’ wage setting principles.
That’s why its a little simplistic to try and measure all politics as being left and right.
Psephos @ 663
My totally rusted-on Tory sibling, far from delivering the expected rant, was quite (& quite vocally) impressed by how well Cuba had coped with 40+ years of the USA blockade.
[My totally rusted-on Tory sibling, far from delivering the expected rant, was quite (& quite vocally) impressed by how well Cuba had coped with 40+ years of the USA blockade.]
Has this sibling ever actually been there?
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/chinas-economy-bounces-back-with-strong-growth-20090716-dmbu.html
[China’s economy grew 7.9 percent in the second quarter of 2009, the government has said, in a startling turnaround for the Asian powerhouse fuelled by a massive stimulus package.
Expansion in the world’s third biggest economy picked up pace again after growing by just 6.1 percent in the first quarter of the year, which was the slowest growth in more than a decade.
China’s gross domestic product grew by 7.1 percent in the first half of 2009 compared with the same period a year earlier, the National Bureau of Statistics said.
This put China back on track to achieve its goal of 8.0 percent growth for the whole year, despite the global financial crisis, however the government warned many pitfalls still lay ahead.]
[impressed by how well Cuba had coped with 40+ years of the USA blockade.]
You mean by the Cuban populace still driving 50 year old Buicks and Dodges?
Or by the Cuban government last year allowing the sale of 486 computers for US$3000?
[China’s economy grew 7.9 percent in the second quarter of 2009, the government has said, in a startling turnaround for the Asian powerhouse fuelled by a massive stimulus package.]
Impossible! Everyone knows stimulus packages don’t work.
OzPol Tragic, I am pleased you watched Peter Andrews and thanks for your educated answer. The academic bureaucrats are so blinded by their prejudices they cannot see what is happening right in front of themselves. Luckily ex GG Michael Jeffrey is giving Andrews his full support. Why are so many Greens not giving him their support?
[Impossible! Everyone knows stimulus packages don’t work.]
ShowsOn you cynic, that only applies to Labor government stimuli 😉
[My totally rusted-on Tory sibling, far from delivering the expected rant, was quite (& quite vocally) impressed by how well Cuba had coped with 40+ years of the USA blockade.]
There wouldn’t be a blockade if Castro hadn’t betrayed the people who put him in power and made himself a dictator. I’m opposed to the blockade, but let’s not confuse cause and effect.
Also, it’s quite common for conservatives to be impressed when they visit communist countries. All that discipline and conformity, jolly good stuff.
Shows On,
Who to believe, your own eyes or Liberal Party rhetoric?
[Who to believe, your own eyes or Liberal Party rhetoric?]
Look, as Joe Hockey reminds us, statistics are just estimations of reality, they aren’t actually reality itself, therefore there is no good reason to believe them!
ANOTHER NEWSFLASH
In a follow-up to last night’s condemnation of Kevin Rudd’s failure to phone the people of Australia and New Zealand to warn them about the earthquake and tsunami, Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed that the situation is a lot more threatening than Rudd would lead us to believe. According to our rowing Tasman Sea reporter, Barnacle Bill, Mr Turnbull and his Foreign Affairs spokesperson, Julie Bishop, are now at the location, having driven their amphibious model of the Debt Truck to the very epicentre. Bill has informed us that Julie has just whacked on the snorkel and mask, and is now reviewing the scene. “However”, said Bill, “it’s a good job the TV cameras aren’t around, as it looks like Julie hasn’t had a bikini wax for a while”. But, according to Julie, “the damage caused by the earthquake is truly mind-boggling”. “But, to be fair”, she added, “the chasm opened up on the sea-floor is nowhere near as wide as Swannie’s cash-splash debt-causing deficit tsunami”. According to the latest reports from Bill at the earthquake zone, Julie is still looking into it.
END OF NEWSFLASH.
AC,
Any sitings of Harold Holt and a submarine?
Finns
My OH reckons that lost Pom is a con for cash, says there’s a pile of empty baked bean cans and a nice cosy swag hidden out there in them thar hills 😉
# 665:
Cuba copes “well” with the blockade because, put simply, they have the other 2/3 of the world to trade with.
However, to say anything other than the nation is a destitute slag heap is a complete fabrication, IMHO.
I wouldn’t mind betting that comment on Kelly’s piece was Piers under cover.
I said the other day after 7 had reported Rudd’s brother going to set up business in China that we’d get these sort of way out attacks on the Rudster 🙂
I believe Harold Holt died about ten years ago at his villa outside Beijing. He had remarried in China and only his Chinese family and a few old colleagues from his days as a Chinese intelligence agent attended the funeral.
662
Another bank would provide more competition in the current environment where the non-bank lenders have gone and the small banks are struggling so the big banks would have a slightly smaller profit margins (but not so small as to threaten their credit rating).
The measures that the Greens support to try and make the distribution of wealth fairer are this like inheritance taxes and taxing family trust in the same way as companies.
http://greens.org.au/node/770
GG (676)
[AC,
Any sitings of Harold Holt and a submarine?]
Over to you, Bill…
[Cuba copes “well” with the blockade because, put simply, they have the other 2/3 of the world to trade with. ]
They also get free oil from Venezuela, which has helped offset the loss of Soviet subsidies.
It’s instructive to compare Cuba with Puerto Rico. They are similar socially and economically, and sixty years ago they were about equally poor. Today Cuba’s per capita GDP is $US1,700, which has hardly changed for 20 years, while Puerto Rico’s is $US10,000 and growing fast.
#677, Amigo Vera,
Mr. Speaker, if it pleases the House, I will suspend my cynicism.
[Another bank would provide more competition in the current environment]
Quite true, but that’s got nothing to do with arguments for having a state bank. It would be much easier to facilitate more foreign banks trading in Australia.
A state bank would either have to trade on the same terms as a private bank, in which case it would be no different to a private bank, or it would somehow follow different rules – such as being able to hand out free money or lend money to anyone that wanted it. That money would of course be taxpayers’ money. Now what happened the last time state bank managers were allowed to play Mr Generosity with public money?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Bank_of_South_Australia
[Now what happened the last time state bank managers were allowed to play Mr Generosity with public money?]
Ever bothered looking at the reasons why what happened happened?
683
Castro should not have become a dictator and Cuba should have had economic reform years ago. It has such an international following because it is such an affront to the bad policy of the Munro Doctrine.
A government bank would operate successfully just as the Commonwealth Bank did before the Hawke-Keating government privatised it. Its role would be to keep the bastards honest. Helen Clark’s government introduced the Kiwi Bank, a government institution which operates through post offices just as Tom the first and best is suggesting for Australia.
King O’Malley lives!
685
It would not give out free money but would be (if properly set up) more consumer favourable than the big four. It would be managed responsibly.
Bob1234,
[Ever bothered looking at the reasons why what happened happened?]
Have you?
If so, why don’t you enlighten us and provide your opinion on why it was so?
It would be much more appreciated than just your typical one line questions with no opinion expressed directly and no supporting or contrary argument!
[Ever bothered looking at the reasons why what happened happened?]
Because state bank mangers were allowed to lend out huge amounts of someone else’s money without proper regulation or supervision. If private bank managers do that, the bank goes broke. If state bank managers do it, the taxpayers have to foot the bill. On the other hand, if they are tightly regulated and supervised, they can’t do it, but the bank then has to behave exactly as though it was a private bank. Either way, Tom’s argument fails.
688
King O`Malley while a driving force behind the Commonwealth Bank would have had in set up less like a normal bank if his view of economics had prevailed in the ALP at the time.
[A government bank would operate successfully just as the Commonwealth Bank did before the Hawke-Keating government privatised it. Its role would be to keep the bastards honest.]
The Commonwealth Bank did not keep the bastards honest. That’s the job of the Reserve Bank and the regulators. The CBA was an ordinary trading bank, no more and no less. Its state ownership was a historical relic.
[King O`Malley while a driving force behind the Commonwealth Bank would have had in set up less like a normal bank if his view of economics had prevailed in the ALP at the time.]
King O`Malley was a crackpot who thought the CBA really should hand out free money. Fortunately Andrew Fisher and Sir Denison Miller ensured that no such thing happened.
If the Commonwealth Bank had been still been owned by the Commonwealth then it would have had less trouble getting money during the GFC credit squeeze because it would have been owned by a very solvent government and therefore less likely to fail.
694
Agreed (don`t die of shock) and thank-you for elaborating.
694
What do you think of the Scullin government`s idea of printing money to fight the depression with? Should they have taken it to a DD?
[What do you think of the Scullin government`s idea of printing money to fight the depression with? Should they have taken it to a DD?]
The defeat of the Fiduciary Notes bill was one of the great tragedies of Australian history. Sir Robert Gibson, Governor of the CBA (the Reserve didn’t exist on those days) refused to give Scullin any money for unemployment relief or for lending to farmers or businesses (so much for the people’s bank!). Theodore’s solution was the Fiduciary Notes bill, which would have allowed the government to give out IOUs backed by a government promise that they would be redeemed in cash after the Depression. It was pretty desperate, but they were desperate times. Theodore was a proto-Keynesian, although it’s doubtful that anything Australia did on its own would have made much difference, since we were totally dependent on world markets, which had collapsed.
Scullin should have called a DD in 1930 while he was still popular, but he lacked the nerve. (The only precedent was Cook’s DD in 1914, which Cook lost.) Whitlam specifically cited Scullin’s fate in 1974 – when the Libs threatened to block the budget, he went straight to the GG, and he won. Fortunately he already had triggers in hand, which Rudd does not.
Orthodox Jews in Israel attack ABC journalist for using a tape recorder on a Saturday:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/06/2617502.htm?section=justin
[I found myself herded against a brick wall as they kept on spitting – on my face, my hair, my clothes, my arms.
It was like rain, coming at me from all directions – hitting my recorder, my bag, my shoes, even my glasses.
Big gobs of spit landed on me like heavy raindrops. I could even smell it as it fell on my face.
Somewhere behind me – I didn’t see him – a man on a stairway either kicked me in the head or knocked something heavy against me.
I wasn’t even sure why the mob was angry with me. Was it because I was a journalist? Or a woman? Because I wasn’t Jewish in an Orthodox area? Was I not dressed conservatively enough?
In fact, I was later told, it was because using a tape-recorder is itself a desecration of the Shabbat even though I’m not Jewish and don’t observe the Sabbath.]
[ Psephos
Posted Thursday, July 16, 2009 at 2:19 pm | Permalink
I believe Harold Holt died about ten years ago at his villa outside Beijing. He had remarried in China and only his Chinese family and a few old colleagues from his days as a Chinese intelligence agent attended the funeral.]
Ahh, it all ties in now. Holt was, in reality, Rudds father! There that proves that Rudd is a Chinese spy! Rudds father didn’t die when he was young, he just quietly slipped back into China! 😉
Tom