No change this week on the Essential Research fortnightly rolling average, which has the Coalition, Labor, the Greens and Palmer United steady on 40%, 41%, 9% and 2%, with Labor’s two-party preferred lead at 53-47. Further questions relate to terrorism, and they offer rare good news for Tony Abbott, whose handling of the threat has 46% approval and 33% disapproval. It would also be to his advantage that fully 75% of respondents believe the threat has increased over the last few years, with only 2% opting for decreased, and that considerably more respondents think the government should be spending more on anti-terrorism measures (39%) than less (12%), with 56% favouring more restrictions versus only 28% who believe current laws strike the right balance. Less good for the government is the finding that 34% approve of the Human Rights Commission’s performance versus only 22% disapproval, although 44% allowed that they didn’t know. Another interesting finding is that 48% would support a national ban on greyhound racing, with only 26% opposed. The poll also finds that 57% take a favourable view of multiculturalism versus 29% for negative, and that 67% think racism is a problem in Australia.
I have no sympathy for Chan and Sukumuran – they knew what they were getting into when they decided to smuggle drugs in Indonesia. It has been a capital offense for a long time.
However, I do agree that the Australian government would be justified in making a diplomatic response, such as recalling our ambassadorial staff.
Pulling Indonesia up on their abuses in West Papua would also be a good move, but really, we should be doing that already regardless of what has been going on with regard to Chan and Sukumuran.
ESJ – eh?
Yes tricot and wins ton Churchill should have made peace in 1940. Something’s are just wrong
[ There are no clues from the article what Australian govt would do though. ]
Luckily there has already been a couple of preemptive warship border incursions to let them know who’s boss
Time to wheel out Randy yet?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGO42gvCSPI)
I am prepared to think that once those two poor sods are executed, as seems to the the wheels at the moment, that three weeks from now the media caravan and moral outrage here, will have moved on.
If we are still talking about this three weeks from tell, I am happy to be told I was wrong.
If the Netherlands and Brazil withdraw their ambassadors then we should as well.
If we don’t, I wonder why not.
One theory is that Abbott doesn’t want to upset Indonesia as the boats may start again
fess
JB also said she’d look at what the response was from other countries in determining what level of protest to make. If we do less than other countries and don’t recall our ambassador, we are saying we are weaker than other countries.
[I’ve no idea what stake Brazil has in maintaining relations with Indonesia]
Brazil and Indonesia both fancy themselves as “emerging powers”, but they are both riddled with crippling corruption and crushing income inequalities.
Other than that, they have little need for each other and Brazil can be a bit more robust in its response — including the last minute cancelling of the new Indo Ambassador’s presentation of credentials to the Brazilian President!
ESJ – So you are inclined to moral absolutism is this weird and wacky world?
I think your use of WC is not a good one as he warned the world about Germany and was ignored. Of all people, he was the one who could order the destruction of the French fleet and the death of French sailors so the ships could not get into the hands of the Germans – the French refusing to come to the English with these ships.
I would have thought the morality of this act alone was loaded with ambiguity.
We are in a weaker position that other countries Diogenes.
Tricot 706. By that logic we need to talk about all the opinions we have ever had all the time, or they are invalid.
No tricot I believe some things are just right and wrong. I can say they are right or wrong irrespective of a cost benefit analysis. Clearly if the cost is too high you can’t make that judgement tricot.
Tricot
We are also in a stronger position as well. Indonesia relies on tourism to Bali.
Not what you want to hear from high court when you are appearing before it:
[FRENCH CJ: Mr Kirk, I think having regard to the present state of disorder in the presentation of these materials, it would be more convenient for all concerned for us to adjourn until 2 pm and I expect you to be ready to give us a coherent and complete presentation. The Court will now adjourn until 2 pm.]
This was the ICAC Cunneen hearing
The execution of the two of the Bali 9 must serve as a warning to Australia as to the nature of the government of our neighbour of 250 million people. A totally different history, culture and religion.
They have been waiting quite some time to get square about East Timor.
Their view of “whitey” is coloured by the Dutch colonists, who when they left after WW2, left behind five Indonesian doctors and three Indonesian engineers.
The one thing that must not happen is any attempt at retaliation, irrespective of what is contemplated.
Remember who the organiser will be – one Tony Abbott. His track record of success is none too flash (spellchecker put up flags instead of flash – remarkable coincidence).
[If we do less than other countries and don’t recall our ambassador, we are saying we are weaker than other countries.]
This is true.
[We are in a weaker position that other countries Diogenes.]
Earlier today some said telling the Indonesian’s what we thought of the death penalty was cultural imperialism. Poor old powerful victim Indonesia.
It always starts with “while I disagree with the death penalty, …”
Not much different to “I’m not a racist, but…”
This is an interesting idea. I can see some merit in it. Making fines on a sliding scale according to income.
[In Finland, businessman Reima Kuisla has copped a mammoth $77,264 (€54,000) for going 103km/hr in an 80km/hr zone.
There’s no doubt that the penalty was rather large by any speeding fines standard, and it’s not as if Mr Kuisla had some ridiculous amount of outstanding fines.
Rather, Finland has an interesting policy where traffic fines aren’t a set amount. They’re based on how much money you earned. The idea is that even rich people will be stung by speeding fines, rather than brush off a $400 fine when your net worth is in the millions.]
Pre-execution Abbott: He’s been restrained since his absurd linking of this issue to the tsunami aid. Presumably even Abbott himself understands that daft statement probably destroyed whatever glimmer of hope there was for these two blokes. Abbott single-handedly made it impossible for Widodo to back down, even leaving aside the tremendous domestic pressure he’s under.
So Abbott is towing the line for now, taking advice from the diplomats and biting his tongue.
Post-execution Abbott
This will be most instructive. I suspect all bets will be off. Abbott will tell the diplomats to get stuffed. He’ll try to seize the public mood by doing and saying some fairly stupid things, with no regard to the relationship.
Privately, I wouldn’t be surprised if Abbott admires this hard line on law and order, but his political survival instincts are telling him he has to milk this for all it’s worth.
So batten down the hatches for some seriously dumb post-execution moves from Abbott.
Shellbell
Who was the Mr Kirk representing?
Dio @714:
Tourism is worth roughly $11bn to Indonesia’s economy per annum – and Australia’s #4 for the amount of money spent by tourists there (behind Singapore, Malaysia and China), which means our tourism is worth – at most – $2-2.5bn p.a. to Indonesia. That’s out of an economy of about $900bn.
Will Bali feel the loss of the trade? Oh, certainly. But it won’t even cripple Bali, and the broader Indonesian economy will probably barely even notice.
To put that in a context: The Abbott Government has pissed more money than that up against a wall with their vendetta against renewable energy.
Dio @719:
It would certainly stop rich lawbreakers from shrugging and paying fines out of petty cash!
ESJ @652:
[1. Some form of de Jure recognition of west Papua.
2. Suspend ministerial visits and ambassador for the foreseeable future
3. Travel bans on Indonesian elite to Australia
4. End loan guarantees for Indonesia.]
And you’ll be happy to pay the increased prices as Indonesia closes its waters and airspace to all ships and aircraft heading to or from Australia in retaliation? Didn’t think so. Recalling our Ambassador for “consultations” is both temporary and appropriate expresses the fact that we Do Not Like how this is turning out, without forcing Widodo into a corner from which he has no choice but to retaliate.
I don’t like the death penalty. I signed the petition for Widodo to reconsider clemency as a gesture of humanity, and I have repeatedly said that Australia could have hammered out a deal years ago to avoid this situation. Having said that, Indonesia’s Government has the uncontested right – as a point of national sovereignty and self-determination – to apply the death penalty in this situation, even as I continue to hope there will be a last-minute reprieve.
What bobbleheads like you fail to realize is that attempting to lean on Indonesia will not only fail (under the calculus of Indonesian politics, Widodo cannot afford to be seen to back down to outside pressure – it would end his Presidency on the spot!), all it will do is alienate the broader international community. Especially over an execution that’s been years in the making, after nine Australian citizens undeniably, willfully and for personal gain broke Indonesian law in a fashion punishable by death under said law.
Even states that do not practice the death penalty will side with Indonesia, because your ham-fisted suggestion to impose Australian norms and Australian laws upon another sovereign nation is redolent of mighty-whitey colonialism at its most pungent. It reeks of the way American embassies would, during the Cold War, lean on third-world countries to get American lawbreakers freed and sent home irrespective of the crimes they’d committed, and the world has not forgotten this.
Your “proposal” would only send Australia spiraling into an abyss of international-pariah status, followed by more xenophobic bulldust and more ostracism, in a vicious cycle. Thank God that Ms. Bishop is advised by professionals, not people like you!
What are you going to say next alias guns don’t kill people, people kill people ?
@ Dio, 719
A fascinating idea – one I wholeheartedly support for all fines, not just those associated with speeding.
Self esteem seems to be an issue for you matt, I hope it doesn’t translate in your teaching.
I think a $77,000 fine instead of a $400 fine is excessive but I think you could fine someone up to ten times the amount ie $4000 if they are very rich.
The main reason behind a fine is as a deterrent and it’s not much of a deterrent if you don’t notice the fine.
Yes, Finland has long linked its road fines to a person’s income.
Nothing new there — just the rich elite in other countries are not interested in it applying here. Imagine our NRL or AFL stars?! They’d die of shock if it applied to them!
[bobbleheads]
Oh dear Matt. You are having an absolute shocker today!
I recall the income-related fine arrangement being raised either here in WA or here on PB at some point in the past. In WA if implemented it just might keep low income fine defaulters out of jail under our insidious 3 strikes/mandatory sentencing policies.
DL
[Yes, Finland has long linked its road fines to a person’s income.]
Are they the only one?
[We are deluded if we think we can hurt them more than they can hurt us.]
We are deluded by so many things and infatuated be our self-importance. This I undoubtedly a tragedy, particularly for the families and friends, but it just becomes another media circus like everything else. Next we’ll get those willing or forced to do so, parading their grief in sensitive close up for our collective entertainment.
I don’t see much difference in tying up these ten people and shooting them to death, than what the Japanese did in this area in WW2.
Sounds like the same thing to me.
If we’re up in arms this much as a nation about executing two (very much guilty) drug smugglers in Indonesia, we should be rolling tanks every time Saudi Arabia hacks someone’s head off for sorcery, tbh.
[Will Bali feel the loss of the trade? Oh, certainly. But it won’t even cripple Bali, and the broader Indonesian economy will probably barely even notice.]
Meh bali is popular because it is close and cheap, they will barely notice and we will have forgotten the young lads before they are buried. It is mostly posturing and politics.
Well said Matt @ 724.
Its just entirely possible that the current shape of the polls reflects the public attention span and has everyone to do with those drug smugglers.
Not so much Abbott’s response to them, simply that the public aren’t paying attention and have already forgotten the Knighting
@ Puff, 734
How about the fact that these ten people have been found guilty of crimes that most of the world considers to be crimes (whether capital or otherwise)?
That is quite different to arbitrary executions under military occupation and it is frankly offensive to the victims of such military occupation to compare the two. You are literally comparing innocents murdered by a genocidal fascist dictatorship to convicted criminals.
What’s next, are you going to suggest the treatment of Chan and Sukumuran is comparable to the treatment of Anne Frank?
One might be on the side of the angels condemning the Indons and being totally against their over-the-top circus with the two guys waiting to die.
We may hate the use of capital punishment and fail to understand the imperatives driving Indonesia currently.
However, this does not mean we are some mighty military, industrial power able to smack the naughty Indonesians.
I think this used to be call Gunboat Diplomacy.
As much as some can’t face it here, our position, other than pontificating from the sidelines, is weak.
Saying this does not mean we are necessarily wrong, just largely powerless.
The fact that we did not, when we might have, done something in 1975 in East Timor – much to the disgrace of the Mighty Gough in my opinion, shows our powerlessness has been of some lengthy duration.
Where were with we with the Dili massacres? And, as I understand it, the officer in charge at the shootings of the Oz journalists is now part of the Indon ruling class?
Dammit, my response got chewed up here. Thought I post it again.
Matt@521
I communicate in English better than any other languages I know but sometimes I like the fact that my native tongue lack gendered terms for referring to someone in third-person. Everybody is sort of an “it” and the only way to determine their gender is by the context.
Post executions. Say very little and do nothing publicly. Use our signal capability and other secret assets we have in place.
Use these to cause mischief and ferment political pressure on the government.
Arrnea Stormbringer,
Are you saying Saudi Arabia has a good international reputation, or are you saying the Indonesians are no better?
I also doubt there’ll be any response to Indonesia by the government
Singapore and Malaysia has much harsher penalties than Indonesia, and have sentence more Australians to death each, yet has had no significant change in bilateral ties by Australia.
AFAIK, the offence of possession in Singapore is classified as trafficking, so one doesn’t need to be classified as a “ring-leader” to be hanged to death.
@ Question, 744
No, I’m saying that our lack of national outrage at Saudi Arabia’s far more despicable “justice” system compared to Indonesia’s should itself be considered a national outrage.
@ Question, 744
No, I’m saying that our lack of national outrage at Saudi Arabia’s far more despicable “justice” system, compared to Indonesia’s, should itself be considered a national outrage.
[731
confessions
I recall the income-related fine arrangement being raised either here in WA or here on PB at some point in the past. In WA if implemented it just might keep low income fine defaulters out of jail under our insidious 3 strikes/mandatory sentencing policies.]
Quite so, confessions. The 3-strike rules are really iniquitous.
Arrnea Stormbringer,
I was pointing out the inanity of your comment. Saudi Arabia does not have a good international reputation.
Next you’ll be bringing up the starving Africans as a reason we shouldn’t give a piss about executing people.
Raaraa
[I also doubt there’ll be any response to Indonesia by the government]
Perhaps Abbott will shirtfront Widodo