GhostWhoVotes reports tomorrow’s Age will feature a Nielsen poll showing state Labor with a handsome 53-47 two-party lead, with both parties’ primary votes believed to be in the high thirties. More to follow.
UPDATE: The primary votes are 38 per cent for both Labor and the Coalition and 16 per cent for the Greens. John Brumby’s approval rating is 51 per cent, down a point on the last Nielsen state poll in January, and his disapproval is up four to 41 per cent. Ted Baillieu is up on both approval (three points to 43 per cent) and disapproval (one point to 46 per cent). Brumby holds a 52-37 lead as preferred premier.
Can the north South Pipeline be reversed and deliver water from the desalination plant to irrigators in the north?
201
I don`t think they designed it for that. It might be convertible but itis for taking water from the wet side to the dry side. I think the desal is being connected to a the Melbourne water system other thin in a way where it would be easy to get its the water to the pipeline.
Of course neither should have been built. The Eastern Treatment plant should have been upgraded to a standard where its water could be pumped into the reservoirs.
Back from long day on and off work – and what do I find? When there are no Liberals on these threads it degenerates into tiresome Green-Labor name-calling.
I am only concerned with the Coalition not winning on Nov 27.
And D@W (re the upper houses voting) – tell someone who cares!
[And D@W (re the upper houses voting) – tell someone who cares!]
..right now that is!
Sometime when I’m not so busy and after the electionI will apply my mathematical training to analyse what you have written here and on the Federal Senate thread post-election.
I really will do this.
Another reason why Brumby govt lead Vic in correct direction being its water position
Water policy in Vic is just another eg of Greens unpractical idealology missing reality
In th middle of an extended oz drought with reserves low , and if drought continued serously a Vic Labor Govt makes th ensibel to decision to ensure there IS bloody water in Melb etc for human consumption ( a Desal plant) in case we did run out
That a Govt (responsibly) protects its citizens with getting guaranteed water supply in evny of running out of water wuld be beyond prioritys of Greens Desal is a sensible ‘reserve’ , at a cost no on will object to if thirsty an no water for kids to drink
and in such case thnking about getting water from stom water or tanks no good if it dont rain , as is treat of pre pee water recycling Also if one wants to sit in opposition thats a good way to do it for no gain in bad times
N/S line is not much taken , about 60 G , and is another ‘reserve’
I do however favor more water tanks assuming we dont get long droughts , also every time it rains i see water going from my rooves & alot wasted for no community benefit , tho some connections to save some do help
On Bay dredging , that issue alot more econ and enviro complex that MSN provides its readers with , and note numerous enviro requiremnts is in place
204
Here is a sensible explanation of what he is on about.
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2010/09/distortions-in-the-queensland-senate-count.html
zoomster
Posted Sunday, October 31, 2010 at 7:09 pm | Permalink
“Ron
Seymour has an excellent local member, who won the seat against all predictions and continues to hold it.
This is partly because of changing demographics but also a credit to his hard work.
The fires aren’t a worry, because Labor has generally dealt with the issues around them well. ”
Zoom thanks for that info , had heard from within Party he works electorate well but hearing from someone closer to there bouts more re assure feedback Also pleased you feel at grass roots that fires not huge issue as i did post concern on fires that you’ve since adressed , because ‘Age’ online i’ve seen alot has given Christine Nixon Chief fire reconstruct Honcho a very neg hard time & wonderd its effect so good to know
Abit surprise N/S quitened down that much ? Yes , McEwan is a encourage guide & 7% is some mighty start margin
LOL. This level of grubbiness makes me laugh: the ALP might as well concede the seat now if they’re dragging that discredited no-hoper Newnham out, with this abysmal trash. Don’t you bozos understand how the bar works? Why should anyone vote for people who dont understand our legal system?
Focus on seats you can hold is my advice. Melbourne is gone. Especially now. PLEASE send Newnham to the other 3 inner city seats! With enemies like this, who needs campaign funds?
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/state-election-2010/outcry-at-greens-smear-20101031-178w6.html
[Robert Richter, both Jewish and a high-profile QC, defended Walters as an ”ethical barrister”. ”The attack on him is completely shameful or rather shameless, and discloses not just an ignorance of the working of our legal system but a betrayal of any sense of proper legal ethics.”
Prominent human rights activist Julian Burnside, QC, slammed Labor’s tactics as a ”disgrace”. ”I can only say that I am astonished at the ignorance (or hypocrisy) of the Herald Sun, Bronwyn Pike and Nick Reece.]
Article on the South Morang rail extension here:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/incompetence-reigns-over-rail-extension-20101031-178s8.html
It doesn’t start well, with the author managing to mix up Whittlesea and Winchelsea, but mostly it makes some very obvious points – it’s way too expensive for what it is. Naturally it compares that rail extension to the Mandurah line in Perth, which seems to be becoming the standard example of how to build passenger rail.
[ The latest example of Transport’s overt hostility to extending the rail network in the new growth corridors of Melbourne was its announcement that the extension of the Epping line (along the existing easement of the old line to Winchelsea) would not continue further than South Morang. The easement from South Morang to Mernda would instead become an exclusive bus route. Both the rail extension and the proposed bus route raise questions. ]
To put this in perspective, the Liberals like doing this sort of thing in WA – the Mandurah line was originally planned with bus lanes going down the freeway and the rail itself taking an indirect route. It’s just bizarre that a Labor govt would be getting up to those tricks.
Peg
so, looking at your own figures:
19% of the time the Greens voted with the Libs
compared to:
10% of the time Libs and Labor voted together;
and
6% of the time the Greens supported Labor against the Libs —
proves that the Greens have voted with the Libs more often than they have with Labor, by a factor of 3%.
Saw my first political advert for the campaign, it was for the Liberal party. If the spin doctors can get that lot across the line I will be impressed.
According to the Liberals the issues are; sorry I forgot; all I can remember is this bunch of used care salesman; more police was in there.
Labors attempt to smear the Melbourne Green Candidate is going well:
[Robert Richter, both Jewish and a high-profile QC, defended Walters as an ”ethical barrister”. ”The attack on him is completely shameful or rather shameless, and discloses not just an ignorance of the working of our legal system but a betrayal of any sense of proper legal ethics.”
Prominent human rights activist Julian Burnside, QC, slammed Labor’s tactics as a ”disgrace”. ”I can only say that I am astonished at the ignorance (or hypocrisy) of the Herald Sun, Bronwyn Pike and Nick Reece.
”The cab-rank rule is fundamental to the independent bar. It exists to protect the community by ensuring that even unpopular clients can get representation in court.
”There are plenty of lawyers in the Labor Party. It is a shame to see the Labor campaign stoop so low as to mount a personal attack which, as they well know, has no foundation at all.”]
fredn etc
I would point out that:
1. The story was initiated by the Herald Sun, who then contacted people for comment.
2. None of the people they contacted were former lawyers.
3. Given that the Greens are quite happy to slur others on the basis of similar lacks of understanding, they should stop being so precious.
I should add
4. Why weren’t Liberals asked to comment? Suggests deliberate attempt to make this a Green-Labor flame war, rather than balanced reporting.
199.
D@W. No, the Greens have no hope of electing 5 members in one region. They have more hope then FF do though, who also run 5(6 in the senate).
ALP and Liberal also run 5. Are you teling me that any of these parties have a chance of winning all seats?
Of course not, you just dont tell the whole truth in order to attack the Greens.
[the ALP might as well concede the seat now if they’re dragging that discredited no-hoper Newnham out, with this abysmal trash. ]
THey have certainly opened a can of worms that they may well regret, lefty.
Does the fact that former State Labor leader, Labor AG, and all round very fine man , the late Jim Kennan, represented Jack Thomas on terrorism charges mean that he was “soft” on terrorism? Of course it doesn’t! Many, many Labor lawyers (and quite a few labor members, State and Federal, who have spent time working as barristers) will be appalled by this approach, and looking over their own shoulders thinking “what will people use against me if this becomes the standard of debate.”
I must confess the fact that this one got past the campaign strategists really surprised me. Any working lawyer could have pointed out the danger of seriously shooting yourself in the foot with this sort of line. Presumably it was some young apparatchik flying solo who didn’t think before he opened his mouth.
[1. The story was initiated by the Herald Sun, who then contacted people for comment.
2. None of the people they contacted were former lawyers.]
If this is really the case, zoomster, (and different stories seem to be circulating about the actual source) the appropriate response from Labor would have been to have said that they completely dissociate themselves from the remarks. Anything else is potentially suicidal. There are too many former lawyers and barristers on the Labor side in the Australian state and federal parliaments , all of who would be vulnerable to attacks of this kind, to do anything else.
The Libs did this to Rick Sarre in Sturt. Labor complained vigorously but their hypocrisy and ignorance knows no bounds as they are happy to dish it out themselves. And the excuses are pathetic.
[Another reason why Brumby govt lead Vic in correct direction being its water position
Water policy in Vic is just another eg of Greens unpractical idealology missing reality]
Water is a tricky issue , Ron. I can certainly understand a government deciding that on a precautionary basis a de-salination plant makes sense, even though it brings with it some other serious economic, environmental and energy budget costs. On the other hand there are some real questions about the size and cost effectiveness of the project.
Part of the problem for Labor with this one is that at the last election in 2006 the Bracks government actually opposed the development of a desal plant (which was part of the Libs platform – though their proposal was a for a much smaller operation, and ridiculously under-funded, than the one Bracks subsequently opted for after re-election.)
Interestingly, in the last election campaign it was Labor, through Thwaites, who the primary proponents of water re-cycling and enhanced domestic storage schemes.
One thing that neither Labour in 2006, nor the Greens today, have been prepared to deal with are the energy issues involved in waste water recycling. The simple fact is that waste water recycling uses much the same sort of reverse osmosis technology used in desal plants, and uses a lot of energy to achieve results. Personally I liked Thwaites/Labor’s 2006 recycling plan (coupled with a variety of other water efficiency and localised water storage solutions) better than the desal option that Labor later settled on, but there are, indeed, up sides and down sides with each. Labor abandoned the waste water scheme largely because of the 2006 electoral reaction in the La Trobe Valley. Many believe it cost them the seats of Morwell and Narracan at that election.
Water has become an even bigger issue since then, of course. I have no doubt that if Labor hadn’t embarked on the desal plant (or alternatively stuck it out with Thwaites recycling scheme) the coalition would be hammering “water security” very effectively today (especially if it hadn’t rained here so much recently!) . On the other hand, there is no doubt a lot more could be done in the domestic water storage / increased industrial efficiency areas / catchment management improvement too. The Greens approach is currently rather similar to the one taken by Labor in 2006, but abandoned because of its political costs after the last election, in many important regards. An arguable case can be made for either approach.
THe Victorian Auditor General’s recent reports on Ground Water management and Environmental flows in Victoria are both worth reading with respect to other important aspects of water management.
Zoomster,
[….19% of the time the Greens voted with the Libs …]
To ignore the reasons why The Greens voted with the Liberals is disingenuous. As I noted:
[* 19 per cent of the time Labor voted against all others. In most cases these votes were about matters relating to government disclosure and transparency, such as the production or tabling of documents, as well as political donations and the need for an anti-corruption commission.]
Why would the Greens support Labor in its efforts to ensure lack of government disclosure, transparency and accountability? After all, the upper house exists as a house of review and to provide checks and balances so that the interests of the community at large are served.
Just as background…
what changed the ALP’s mind about desal was the realisation that no town or city could (in the light of the drought) continue to rely on one water source only.
This was partly due to an unexpected failure of the Wangaratta water supply, which had (only a month or two previously) been regarded as one of the safest in the state.
Due to human error, one month Wangaratta was right for the next year or so, the next it was looking at carting in water.
I know from personal experience that Brumby and Thwaites actively canvassed several options which Labor had never previously considered, as a direct result of this crisis.
Brumby said in my presence wtte that ‘no responsible country can let a city like Wangaratta run out of water’.
This was reinforced by the fires in 2006 – after the state election – which threatened the Thompson and, if not contained, would have seen Melbourne’s already stressed water supply dramatically cut.
The desal plant, N-S and various other pipelines and other similar measures should be seen in the context of a changed realisation by the government that one source of water (in most cases, dams) could not be relied on in the future.
Here are some differing views about the desalination plant.
[JOHN Brumby’s multibillion-dollar plan to save water in northern Victoria and boost Melbourne’s supply has been rubbished by Australia’s top economists and water experts.
They say that the project is based on ”spurious” claims and will result in the waste of hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ money.]
http://www.theage.com.au/environment/water-issues/brumbys-water-plan-savaged-20100327-r4dh.html
What’s happening with Mike Rann’s High Court challenge to Brumby over water allocation? Has anyone heard how it is progressing?
Peg, er (cough) the article you link to in 223 is NOT about the desal plant, but about the Foodbowl Modernisation project.
Good idea to read these things, rather than just googling them and pasting bits from them without looking at the context.
Just by the way, ff the Liberal party actually have a policy on water in Victoria for this election its is danged hard to find!
Almost all of their statements about the matter are either very vague “motherhood” propositions or simply oppose Greens or Labor proposals with no developed notion at all of what alternatives they offer.
As we saw with the Federal coalition in the last election campaign across the board the coalition really seem to have done almost no work at all on policy development in the course of the last parliament.
Oops, you are right, Zoomster. That’s the problem with furiously multi-tasking. I did actually read the article but I was thinking about the issue of water, including water security, and the desalination plant in particular and got mixed up.
The desal plant and the NW pipeline were insurance policies. If it hadn’t of rained they would have been needed insurance policies.
Melbourne running out of water would have had very very serous consequences, even for those complaining that a little water was being taken from the north of the state.
Opps NS pipeline.
[zoomster
Posted Monday, November 1, 2010 at 8:14 am | Permalink
I should add
4. Why weren’t Liberals asked to comment? Suggests deliberate attempt to make this a Green-Labor flame war, rather than balanced reporting.]
Yes it is all very strange, the campaign seems to be focusing on getting the left back to Labor by smearing the Greens (like that is going to work), and having a go at getting liberal preferences (fat chance). It no longer about increasing Labor’s primary vote.
fredn
given the reporting was done by the Herald sun, and therefore the approaches were made by them, my comment was directed at them.
It makes far more sense to postulate that the H-S has an agenda to sow discord amongst the parties of the left.
If that isn’t their agenda, then why didn’t they get a Liberal comment?
I agree with you about the insurance policy aspect of water reforms.
Peg—
OK, I know that feeling!
ITs getting pretty obvious now that the Greens and the Liberals are secret bedfellows no matter what the likes of John Howard says. Labor needs public support from conservatives to fight the Green menace.
zoomster
There has been a few posters on this site joining in with the herald sun, take GG comments as an example.
Or perhaps take Paul Nash’s as an example.
The Conservative National Party in Victoria should put pressure on its non-Labor coalition partner to preference Labor ahead of the Greens.
[given the reporting was done by the Herald sun, and therefore the approaches were made by them, my comment was directed at them.
It makes far more sense to postulate that the H-S has an agenda to sow discord amongst the parties of the left.]
mmm. The story at
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/state-election-2010/outcry-at-greens-smear-20101031-178w6.html is a bit harder to simply dismiss in this fashion, I’m afraid though zoomster.
Don’t forget that Newnham was the “genius” who brokered the deal which saw ALP prefs go to silly Fielding and his Holy Roller Party,and got him elected over a very well qualified Green…and in the end it was a costly blunder which harmed the Rudd Govt. as Fielding often lined up with the Libs on key senate issues…issues where a Green senator would have taken a different position.,and supported Labor.
Now the same apparatchiks in the ALP office have aroused the ire of respected legal figures like Burnside and Richter…and amusingly… the Libs in NSW under Barry O’Farrell have made it clear that they will preference the Greens ahead of Labor…as Kennet says they will in Victoria.
I know that won’t please Greensborough Growler or his friend from the right wing IPA or the AWFUL Andrew Bolt …but they will have to console each other !
Democracy at work
[Can the north South Pipeline be reversed and deliver water from the desalination plant to irrigators in the north?]
Moving water uphill requires expensive and energy intensive pumping so, the short answer is, not without more construction and a lot of ongoing expense. We already turn more water inland to irrigators than we shoudl in environmental and economic terms. The irrigators have to face the fact that they have over-expanded.
Paul Nash
re your “green Menace” statement…you sound like Mannix or Santamaria in the”cold war ” 1950’s… only they talked of “the red menace “…..are you by any change an Archbishop in disguise ???
Andrew Crook’s piece at http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/02/16/altona-means-nothing-for-brumby-in-november/ on the aftermath of the Altona by-election, which invokes both Newnham and the Hun with respect to Labor / Greens issues is worth a look at in the context of the current matter.
the three evil isms are Liberalism, Socialism and Communism and the Greens are green on the outside and red on the inside. red meaning communists the Green moverment sprung up in West Germany in the early 1970s and its then female leader was every much like Rosa Luxembourg.
I should add that I have no criticism of the Brumby govt building the desal plant. It is easy to be wise in hindsight. At the time the decision was taken they had to do something, and there were few other options.
I have more concern over the public transport situation though. Kenneth Davidson is indirectly half right. The problem is not the cost of current works; that is the unavoidable consequence of past avoidance of work that needed doing. The system was starved of maintenance and upgrading funds for so long that now almost any project requires upgrading or replacement of every component. The whole Melbourne rail catenary (overhead power) system needs urgent replacement, if anyone has $2 billion spare…
That being said, I agree with Davidson on the suspiciously high cost of PPPs. I think construction costs are often inflated in such projects, so that more can be gouged in tolls. There often isn’t enough construciton expertise left in the line agencies to tell.
Rod
wasn’t aware of ‘The Age’ article but it is interesting – the same lack of detail. Dark hints that certain individuals have been approached (so scarcely an in your face media attack). References to piles of documents (which apparently weren’t distributed to anyone).
Apart from that, seems to be a rehash of the H-S stuff.
So the story, at most, is that an individual with links to the Labor party has made some approaches to other individuals, who have then contacted the media.
If it’s become a story, it’s because of those later contacts.
To me, it reads as if ‘The Age’ is miffed it’s missed out on the H-S story and so has cobbled together one of its own.
If it was a concerted, fair dinkum attack on The Greens, there would be at least a media release or a leaflet or a personal letter even to refer to.
At this rate, if I ring either paper and tell them that someone connected with the ALP told me once that Brian Walters had a fake suntan, it would be all over the media tomorrow as an example of a vicious personal attack on a Greens candidate.
Another thing worth remembering about Newnham is that he is the spouse of the Labor member for Northcote, whose real contest in this election will be with The Greens rather than the Coalition (as it ended up being last time around and in 2002 as well). The Greens probably don’t have much real chance of winning Northcote (Labor actually won a little back from them last time around, ending up with 58.5 to 41.5% 2PP) but perhaps he thinks he is doing his wife a favour by creating a little more labor / Greens heat.
[So the story, at most, is that an individual with links to the Labor party has made some approaches to other individuals, who have then contacted the media.
]
Mmm. Well, maybe it is someone playing a “loan hand”, zoomster but if so then someone needs to slap him down pretty quickly before it gets out of control.
The difference between the Age story and the one in the Herald is that some real names are named. As I’m sure you know, Newnham had a long working relationship with Lenders, who is specifically quoted in the article, as well as keeping some unusual company of his own these days.
Just caught up with the Labor smears of Greens candidate Brian Walters which is, as Julian Burnside said, “a disgrace”.
Stephen Newnham seems to be both stupid as well as unethical. This sort of attack won’t fool many people in a well educated electorate like Melbourne, and might also cost many more votes in other inner seats. Who makes these clowns secretary? I wonder if Newnham will have the courage to resign? At this point, the best contribution he could make to Labor, is to join the Liberals.
Then again, the fact that Newnham’s comments are coinciding with others by Bronwyn Pike and John Lenders suggests this is not a slip of the tongue by a young Tony Abbott-clone in Labor’s ranks. If this is what Labor thinks it needs to do to win elections, then it better get used to minority government with the Greens. Or losing.
So how many Greens MPs in Victorian parliament? Sounds like the score will be at least one 🙂
Paul Nash @241
Check your facts. The Green Movement started in Germany, true. That was not the forerunner of the Green Party. The Green Party started from the Wilderness Society in Tasmania just after the Lake Pedder/Franklin Dam protests. It then spread to the rest of the world.
In fact the German Green Movement and Green Party often have violent disagreements.
The ACF and the Aus Greens don’t always get along either.
Soc
[Who makes these clowns secretary? I wonder if Newnham will have the courage to resign?]
He can’t resign, he did that over a year ago.
And please, look at the way this story was generated.
A political attack is when one party disseminates information publically to undermine another candidate.
After all, for such an attack to be effective, it has to be widespread.
So in that kind of attack, leaflets are dropped. Media releases are put out. Maybe even a TV ad or two.
That’s a concerted political attack on an opponent.
This appears to be, in one case, the H-S coming up with its own line of attack on Brian Walters and then getting comments from Labor MPs.
Probably foolish of the MPs to comment, but they didn’t initiate the ‘attacks’ and a one liner response in the H-S is scarcely a concerted attack by the party.
As I said earlier, “The Age’ report is based on even flimsier ground and sounds like an attempt to be relevant.
Guys, you are all being manipulated by the media. This is not an attack on the Greens by Labor as a whole (at most, a couple of individual memebers made ill considered responses to media inquiries) but an attack on the Greens and Labor by the media.
Everyone knows in Victoria that the Libs are a waste of time. “Labor set to decimate the Liberals again’ is not going to sell newspapers.
Everyone also knows that the H-S proprietor has no fondness for the left. Stirring up trouble between the two left of centre parties is what his paper set out to achieve, and we’re all doing a very good job of falling for it.
[Who makes these clowns secretary? I wonder if Newnham will have the courage to resign?]
Newnham resigned as party secretary last year, Soc. He had been under a lot of pressure to do so from other factional interests. Adds another possible layer to the mix .
[Guys, you are all being manipulated by the media. This is not an attack on the Greens by Labor as a whole (at most, a couple of individual memebers made ill considered responses to media inquiries) but an attack on the Greens and Labor by the media.]
In that case, zoomster, one might expect prominent Labor figures to come out and denounce the claims. They haven’t.