The tribes of Israel

The latest Essential Research poll turns up a mixed bag of views on the Israel Folau controversy. Also featured: prospects for an indigenous recognition referendum and yet more Section 44 eruptions.

The latest of Essential Research’s fortnightly polls, which continue to limit themselves to issue questions in the wake of the great pollster failure, focuses mostly on the Israel Folau controversy. Respondents registered high levels of recognition of the matter, with 22% saying they had been following it closely, 46% that they had “read or seen some news”, and another 17% saying they were at least “aware”.

Probing further, the poll records very strong support for what seem at first blush to be some rather illiberal propositions, including 64% agreement with the notion that people “should not be allowed to argue religious freedom to abuse others”. However, question wording would seem to be very important here, as other questions find an even split on whether Folau “has the right to voice his religious views, regardless of the hurt it could cause others” (34% agree, 36% disagree), and whether there should be “stronger laws to protect people who express their religious views in public” (38% agree, 38% disagree). Furthermore, 58% agreed that “employers should not have the right to dictate what their employees say outside work”, which would seem to encompass the Folau situation.

Respondents were also asked who would benefit and suffer from the federal government’s policies over the next three years, which, typically for a Coalition government, found large companies and corporations expected to do best (54% good, 11% bad). Other results were fairly evenly balanced, the most negative findings relating to the environment (26% good, 33% bad) and, funnily enough, “older Australians” (26% good, 38% bad). The economy came in at 33% good and 29% bad, and “Australia in general” at 36% good and 27% bad. The poll was conducted last Tuesday to Saturday from a sample of 1099.

Also of note:

• A referendum on indigenous recognition may be held before the next election, after Aboriginal Affairs Minister Ken Wyatt’s announcement on Wednesday that he would pursue a consensus option for a proposal to go before voters “during the current parliamentary term”. It is clear the government would not be willing to countenance anything that went further than recognition, contrary to the Uluru Statement from the Heart’s call for a “First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution” – a notion derided as a “third chamber of parliament” by critics, including Scott Morrison.

• A paper in the University of Western Australia Law Review keeps the Section 44 pot astir by suggesting 26 current members of federal parliament may fall foul by maintaining a “right of abode” in the United Kingdom – a status allowing “practically the same rights” as citizenship even where citizenship has been formally renounced. The status has only been available to British citizens since 1983, but is maintained by citizens of Commonwealth countries who held it before that time, which they could do through marriage or descent. This could potentially be interpreted as among “the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power”, as per the disqualifying clause in Section 44. Anyone concerned by this has until the end of the month to challenge an election result within the 40 day period that began with the return of the writs on June 21. Action beyond that point would require referral by the House of Representatives or the Senate, as appropriate.

Author: William Bowe

William Bowe is a Perth-based election analyst and occasional teacher of political science. His blog, The Poll Bludger, has existed in one form or another since 2004, and is one of the most heavily trafficked websites on Australian politics.

1,966 comments on “The tribes of Israel”

Comments Page 18 of 40
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  1. zoomster:

    [‘Boer

    I’m not qualified to make those decisions. I leave them to the experts.’]

    Maybe we rely on ‘experts’ too much? I do, however, verily believe that experts are as stuffed up as most of us are. Where, though, experts come into their own is with the young, the impressionable They can save lives, just by changing the narrative.

  3. Appeal to authority has long been regarded as a logical fallacy.
    This appeal has been made fairly consistently by most supporters of pill testing today.

  4. Mavis

    Well, who else are you proposing we rely on?

    I suppose we could do vox pops, or consult the zodiac, or toss a dice.

    Experts certainly don’t get it right all of the time, but they get it right more often than non-experts.

  5. Boer

    And what are you using as the basis of your arguments? You have provided no evidential or expert backing for any of your opinions. You appear to be operating on a base of complete ignorance and resolute prejudice. You obviously have made up your mind and don’t care whether the facts support that.

  6. C@tmomma @ #843 Saturday, July 13th, 2019 – 5:11 pm

    So, a fifteen year old does barrel up with Ice for testing. What do you do?

    As Ice is commonly injected or smoked in an Ice pipe, it would be a highly unlikely event to happen at a dance party. You would have to openly consume the drug. As opposed to a young person popping a pill orally.

    You would be more likely to find a 15 year old Ice user in an Indigenous Community, far, far away from a dance party. Or some other lower social demographic area. They generally wouldn’t have enough money for a dance party ticket AND Ice.

    But hey, that’s just reality and Boerwar is refusing to deal with that.

    Thanks C@t. My first reaction to Boerwar’s comment was to think that ice isn’t commonly consumed via a pill, but via the mechanisms you identified.

  7. …and appeal to authority is only a fallacy IF it is misused – for example, I cite Stephen Hawking when I’m arguing about fashion trends, or Beyonce on physics. If the authority IS an authority in the field under discussion, then it’s absolutely sensible to appeal to them.

  8. zoomster

    See if you can spot the direct practical and policy issues arising from legalizing drugs for certain age groups at rave parties:

    https://gisellemary.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/age-limits-raves/

    The policies cannot be disconnected as I have been arguing.

    Going beyond rave parties would you legalize all drug use by people of any age?
    Or would you restrict the legalization of any drug to people who are eligible to go to rave parties?
    Say you set 18 for rave parties, would you set 18 for legal drugs beyond rave parties? Under this age threshold, what do you do about 17 year olds who take illegal drugs?
    Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?

  10. ‘zoomster says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:22 pm

    …and appeal to authority is only a fallacy IF it is misused – for example, I cite Stephen Hawking when I’m arguing about fashion trends, or Beyonce on physics. If the authority IS an authority in the field under discussion, then it’s absolutely sensible to appeal to them.’

    Suppose it turns out that Hawking’s theory du jour (and they DID change over time) is not universally accepted?

  11. Checked it out – music festivals are either restricted to those who can provide ID proving they’re over 18 or are family events where children must be supervised at all times by a parent.

  12. It looks to me like Boerwar has me blocked. Which is a pity as I am actually a professional wrt drug taking. And a mother of Rave age young adults who have friends who regularly go to dance parties. 😐

  13. Boer

    It doesn’t mean he wasn’t an appropriate authority to cite at the time. Every field of science is limited by our present understanding.

    He certainly would be a more reliable source than some random on the street who knows nothing about the subject.

  14. Boerwar

    Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?

    Do you believe that ‘youth’ will stop taking drugs because “”Uncle Boerwar says NO!” ? Do you believe your approach/attitude will ‘solve’ the problem and stop drug use ?

  15. ‘zoomster says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:20 pm

    Boer

    And what are you using as the basis of your arguments? You have provided no evidential or expert backing for any of your opinions. You appear to be operating on a base of complete ignorance and resolute prejudice. You obviously have made up your mind and don’t care whether the facts support that.’

    Ad hominem attacks are an even bigger logical fallacy than appeals to authority.

  16. Boer

    You’re doing the slippery slope argument again.

    There is a proposal on the table which will save lives. It has been backed by experts, evidence and practical experience. It is what it is – nothing more.

    Get in place the proposal which will save lives, and save those lives.

    What happens afterwards will depend on how successful the life saving has been.

  17. You’re being silly, zoomster. As I implied, if you’re seeing a psych at my age, you’re suffering an incurable malady – that is: Thanatophobia, the young notwithstanding, who have no conception of it.

  18. There are many different types of illicit drugs and there usage has a variety of social settings. Some types are used in more private locations, whilst others are more commonly used in more social ones.

    As such how you might deal with a particular drug would vary depending on the settling.

  19. Anyway, Boer is getting circular, and I don’t like repeating myself. If Boer comes up with a new argument, I might engage again, otherwise it’s pointless.

  21. C@t

    Good evening self appointed gatekeeper, and 2nd most vip snarker. What little gems of misinformation have you put up today? How many have you abused?

    I keep coming back because quite a few posters are pleasant, intelligent, articulate and write interesting posts. Not including you.

    BTW, unlike you, Mr Bowe has not invited me to leave. Touch wood.

  22. ‘poroti says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:28 pm

    Boerwar

    Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?

    Do you believe that ‘youth’ will stop taking drugs because “”Uncle Boerwar says NO!” ? Do you believe your approach/attitude will ‘solve’ the problem and stop drug use ?
    Boerwar’

    The use of the term ‘Uncle’ is an attempt to be, I believe, an attempt to be dismissive of the logic of the situation.

    My view is that legalizing all drugs (including any and all of the dozens of new synthetic drugs coming onto the market every year) and allowing any age group legal access to all drugs is a wise general drug policy. Even if it is associated with discussions led by wise people who do not condemn it.

    For example, I don’t think it is appropriate to make it legal for seven year olds to go down to the milk bar and buy Ice and then use it. (If seven years old is your extreme, insert any teen age as your preferred threshold). I don’t think it is appropriate to tell Phillip Morris or whomever that they can market whatever drugs they choose to whomever they choose. Pill testing glides past the large practical and policy issues as if they do not exist and as if pill testing has no flow through effects.

  24. ‘Barney in Makassar says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:31 pm

    There are many different types of illicit drugs and there usage has a variety of social settings. Some types are used in more private locations, whilst others are more commonly used in more social ones.

    As such how you might deal with a particular drug would vary depending on the settling.’

    What is your view on managing the national Ice epidemic? Pill test Ice at places where youths congregate?

    I raise this particular issue as a mark of respective to the Hon Hastie MP who, after slagging Labor for not having his back in Afghanistan, announced immediately after his success in a bye-election that he was going to Canberra to fix the Ice Epidemic.

  27. Mavis

    Really. I made a comment about experts in the context of assessing drug policy. I have no idea what that has to do with seeing psychiatrists or Thanatos.

    It’s always possible that I’m just stupid, of course.

  28. Boerwar

    ”Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?”

    The answer to that question is a very loud “yes”. That is why the pill testing is so important. Many of the kids do only use drugs at music raves.

    I’d best not say that there is evidence for this else you’ll fatuously charge me again with strategically appealing to authority.

    You, regarding this matter, and BB regarding matters of child sexual assault and the formation of sexual identity are simply out of your knowledge depth. Both of you seem to be fixated on being correct in every area of knowledge, not just the ones you are clearly knowledgeable in.

    C’est la vie.

  32. The Dutch general drug policy discriminates between hard drugs and soft drugs and the Dutch have different practical and policy settings according to this basic classification.

    There is a bit of split in approach to users and suppliers.

    BTW, for the Dutch, rave drugs are hard drugs.

    I understand that they are finally getting around to addressing the one plain silly thing about the general policy settings by legalizing and regulating the provision of supply.

    As for Portugal, the general drug situation is better than it used to be but it used to absolutely terrible. How bad it is now, statistically, is difficult to discover. Some benefits are incontrovertible. It is clear that providing sterile needles has been important in HIV and Hep management.

  33. zoomster:

    [‘t’s always possible that I’m just stupid, of course.’]

    Please, all are integrated. I categorically refuse to endorse your argument that you’re stupid.

  34. #WeatheronPB. Clear and 11° in Sydney with a lazy wind, the sort that goes through you rather than around you. Wind chill 2°.

    Regarding drug testing, I’d be pragmatic, go for what is most likely to work. Demonstrating to young people at music festivals / raved that they’ve bought poisonous crap sounds like it might work, help keep them just a bit safer until they know better.

  35. ‘Psyclaw says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:45 pm

    Boerwar

    ”Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?”

    The answer to that question is a very loud “yes”. That is why the pill testing is so important. Many of the kids do only use drugs at music raves.

    I’d best not say that there is evidence for this else you’ll fatuously charge me again with strategically appealing to authority.

    You, regarding this matter, and BB regarding matters of child sexual assault and the formation of sexual identity are simply out of your knowledge depth. Both of you seem to be fixated on being correct in every area of knowledge, not just the ones you are clearly knowledgeable in.

    C’est la vie.’

    —————————————
    You do realize that ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy?

    Beyond that, spot the contradiction in your own answer:

    ”Do you really think that youth are taking illegal drugs only at rave parties?”
    The answer to that question is a very loud “yes”. That is why the pill testing is so important. Many of the kids do only use drugs at music raves.

  36. Boerwar,

    I haven’t seen anything on policy proposals in dealing with ice and as I have no personal knowledge on the issue I have no view in how it can be tackled.

  37. William

    Sorry, my bad.

    I write mainly on iPhone and have no plug-ins and I did not reference my post as a specific reply as I should have. It was not from nowhere. It was in response to C@t @3.22pm. I’ m sure she knew this, but if not she will now.

  38. ‘Steve777 says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:52 pm

    #WeatheronPB. Clear and 11° in Sydney with a lazy wind, the sort that goes through you rather than around you. Wind chill 2°.

    Regarding drug testing, I’d be pragmatic, go for what is most likely to work. Demonstrating to young people at music festivals / raved that they’ve bought poisonous crap sounds like it might work, help keep them just a bit safer until they know better.’

    Except that the pills that PASS the test are damaging in themselves. Why encourage cognitive impairment? Depression? Memory loss?

  41. ‘Barney in Makassar says:
    Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 7:55 pm

    Boerwar,

    I haven’t seen anything on policy proposals in dealing with ice and as I have no personal knowledge on the issue I have no view in how it can be tackled.’

    While I would not recommend it, Duterte has had a certain anecdotal impact on shaba use. No-one was actually counting it was thought that there were around 2 million shaba users when Duterte was voted in. Again, while no-one did the statistics this was said to have caused high levels of street crime in the barangays, particularly the poorer ones. In other words shaba was so prevalent that it was wrecking the lives not only of the users but of ordinary people in ordinary circumstances.

    I was told a couple of things by what I would call ordinary citizens of the Philippines. Life on the streets is a lot safer than it used to be since the Duterte sponsored and UN condemned extra judicial massacre of thousands of shaba suppliers and users.

    I assume that this meant that my interlocutors did not belong to families that had had members murdered by the death squads. The second thing was also interesting. Low level drug users/suppliers want to stay IN jail because they were somewhat (not entirely) less likely to be murdered in jail than on the streets.

    None of the above is statistically reliable or valid.

  43. I would be surprised if much has changed; I suspect alcohol is still the most abused drug, the drug that causes the most health issues and the drug that causes the most social damage.

    Legalize the whole bloody lot and tax them at a rate that covers the cleanup cost is my view.

  44. Enough already. Enjoy the rest of the evening and, when the sandman comes into your life, sweet dreams.

    sandman. bringer of sleep in nursery lore, 1861, from sand (n.) in reference to hard grains found in the eyelashes on waking;

  45. Boerwar

    I see no contradiction. But I could have been clearer.

    The evidence shows that many of those who have accessed pill testing are naive kids who use drugs only at rave parties. Their naivety as to the wider drug scene, and poor knowledge about drug usage has been reported by health workers in the tents.

    The naivety was well exemplified in the Coronial inquest this week when it emerged that a young kid panicked when she thought police were about to check her, and so swallowed 9 ecstasy pills so she would not be caught “in possession”.

    That was not the action of an experienced, hardened drug user.

    They

  47. It doesn’t matter if a leader is strong or not. It matters whether he is doing the right thing. Donald Trump is not.

  49. BW @7:57.

    “Except that the pills that PASS the test are damaging in themselves. Why encourage cognitive impairment? Depression? Memory loss?”

    All true of course. Alcohol has similar effects.

    Drugs are a fraught issue and I don’t know the solution. Never took drugs myself but over the years have consumed more alcohol than was good for me. Some addictive substances are legal, others not.

    I would go for the principle of minimising harm. How? I don’t know, but the record of prohibition and a ‘war on drugs’ isn’t encouraging.

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