As it usually does in the post-Christmas quiet spot, The Australian today brings us aggregated results from recent Newspoll surveys with voting intention and leaders’ ratings broken down by state and various demographic indicators. Unfortunately, only three polls have been conducted since the exercise was last conducted in mid-October, resulting in an unusually modest overall sample of 3655, breaking down to as little as 277 in the case of South Australia (with no repeat of the October aggregate’s inclusion of a Tasmanian result).
With due caution for the wide error margins, the state breakdowns are remarkable for how close they are to the results of the 2022 election, with Labor leading 51-49 in New South Wales (compared with 51.4-48.6 at the election), 55-45 in Victoria (54.8-45.2), 54-46 in Western Australia (55.0-45.0) and 55-45 in South Australia (54.0-46.0), and the Coalition leading 54-46 in Queensland (54.0-46.0). The gender breakdowns unusually find Labor in a slightly stronger position among men (leading 53-47, out from 51-49 in the October aggregate) than women (in from 56-44 to 52-48), but I would hesitate to read much into it at this stage. You can find most of the results by clicking on the relevant tabs in the BludgerTrack poll data feature.
UPDATE: There is also today a similar exercise from Nine Newspapers from its last three monthly Resolve Strategic polls, though the interest level is limited in this case by the fact that breakdowns for the three largest states are published with each poll. Whereas Newspoll finds no state swinging by more than 1% compared with the election, Resolve Strategic, which has been markedly more favourable for Labor than other pollsters, records a very wide range of results. The pollster does not provide two-party preferred numbers, but my own estimates suggest swings to Labor of around 3.5% in New South Wales, 3% in Victoria, 6.5% in Queensland and 9% in South Australia, and to the Coalition of around 2% in Western Australia. Also featured are breakdowns by three age cohorts, which follow the usual patterns.
pied piper says:
“Elon Musk robot attacks worker in Tesla factory”
Why would anyone make a robot of Elon Musk? 😉
Further to India’s military build up, and where it has seen the threats since independence, and why this has changed – this hour long deep dive by the excellent Perun explains it well.
In short, India’s rise as more than a regional power is important for us to understand.
https://youtu.be/QvhEN_kHaA4?si=O2XDLgo1KO3-byyW
A-E
On the Anzacs, yes the problem is lack of space, stability and tonnage margins remaining. The VLS tubes and CEAFAR radars added both ate into stability and tonnage margins.
Entropy
You are greatly oversimplifying the Chinese threat to India by only talking about land borders. China has leant on both Myanmar and Pakistan to acquire naval basing rights in their Indian Ocean ports. So the PLAN now has submarines based in the Indian Ocean that could threaten Indian shipping. Additionally they have “donated” SSKs to Myanmar and Pakistan, which are probably also Chinese crewed. Hence India’s naval buildup. See
https://thediplomat.com/2022/12/chinas-emerging-subsurface-presence-in-the-indian-ocean/
A short history of the LNP China love fest:
The relationship between LNP and China was at its most cosiest probably around 2017/18. A decade after they should have known better:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/protibet-protests-continue-in-australia-20080316-1zob.html
Following the great sycophant Andrew Robb retiring his apprentice Steven Ciobo appeared and proved he was the true master of the kow tow.
The LNP Federal Government then signed up to Xi’s Belt and Road agreement in secret.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/foreign-affairs-ministry-opts-for-secrecy-over-china-infrastructure-agreement-20180730-p4zufm.html
As you all must remember?, Steve Ciobo forgot it was secret agreement and went on Sky News telling them all about it. This interview with Keran Gilbert was probably the greatest China and Xi love fest ever aired on Australian media. With a kow towing Trade Minister and a Chinese sycophant media asking the questions.
https://www.trademinister.gov.au/minister/steven-ciobo/transcript/sky-news-am-agenda-interview-1
I particularly like this answer by Ciobo, i doubt Xi’s propaganda unit could have scripted it better:
“STEVEN CIOBO: Well, there’s certainly scope for Australian businesses to be involved in the Belt Road Initiative. The Belt Road Initiative is part of President Xi’s vision for China throughout the region. President Xi, when he spoke, I think it was in Davos, but also when he made comments in relation to Belt and Road at the Belt and Road Forum last year in China. I made the point that, if you look back over time and you look at the history of China’s engagement, it’s been through these pathways for trade that they’ve been able to drive prosperity and to drive peace. And that lay at the core of this Belt Road Initiative. So strictly from a commercial point of view, of course there’s opportunity for Australian businesses to be involved here. We have really strong trade-”
Though this answer was particularly good too. As Ciobo with his Sky News mate attack both Labor and the unions for not being pro-China and Xi:
“STEVEN CIOBO: Well, you know, I find it a little ironic, frankly, that the Labor Party would lecture people about megaphone diplomacy when they’re actually doing a major speech, themselves. But you know, you can sense the irony there. But look, ultimately if you look at the relationship that we have with China, on a trade investment front this is a very broad, very deep relationship. We’ve seen really strong growth, strong exports. And let’s never forget Kieran, the Labor Party, frankly, think that everyone has a five-second memory. When we did the free trade agreement with China, Labor called it a ‘dud deal’. When we were doing this deal with China, which is driving exports, driving growth, driving jobs, the Labor Party was condoning the most disgraceful multi-million dollar campaign by Australia’s union movement, who were running around saying this was gonna see a flood of dodgy Chinese workers coming into the country. So, you know frankly, the last people that we’ll be talking advice off in relation to our dealings with China is the Australian Labor Party.”
Speaking of robots:
Altaira: “Where have you been?”
Robby the Robot: “Sorry, miss, I was giving myself an oil job.”
(Forbidden Planet)
Socratessays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 1:32 pm
A-E
On the Anzacs, yes the problem is lack of space, stability and tonnage margins remaining. The VLS tubes and CEAFAR radars added both ate into stability and tonnage margins.
Entropy
———————————————————————
I don’t personally have a problem with India building up its navy. Though it should also work on getting its population out of poverty. I was being a bit flippant over some people (not you or BW) who seem to have a go at Australia buying Naval assets and giving a country like India a free ride when it is doing exactly the same thing.
@socrates:
Perhaps the CAEFAR radars tipped the balance, but the VLS shouldn’t have: as the ANZACs were built ‘for but not with’ them as well – with an option to install another 8 cell module! I think the towed array may have done for the second VLS module, but The Phalanx is actually a relatively small and light unit: 6.2 metric tonnes, with each 1500 round ammo drum probably weighing another tonne or so. So if there was space, I doubt that an additional ~7-8 tonnes net on the superstructure would make any difference to the stability or tonnage margins to a 3000 tonne warship.
I was looking at the two ANZACs birthed at Woolloomooloo Bay last Friday pretty closely, and it appears to me that if a single comms dome was moved from the rear superstructure a Phalanx unit could be installed in exactly the same position as the RNZN ANZACs have them (and I had a photo of a NZ ANZAC open on my iPad as was looking across the Bay from the Boy Charlton cafe (which is now rubbish as Itza has commented on above).
Anyhoo, if there was any actual information out there on this issue, I’d be very keen to know, as the ANZACs are going to have to perform a series of pretty vital functions under the Strageic Defence Review over the next 15-20 years until other ships eventually replace them & without a CIWS – in the age of mass drones- they probably won’t be able to do any of those functions.
One for Tesla lovers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10220820129447647&set=gm.2297800223758040&idorvanity=218454295025987
“As you all must remember?, Steve Ciobo forgot it was secret agreement and went on Sky News telling them all about it.”
Shades of Billy McMahon blabbing about the existence of ASIS.
”
citizensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 11:06 am
The SMH landing page has highlighted this opinion piece on its landing page “Right-wing media bias now treated as normal”.
It’s just a letter to the editor and is obviously used as click bait to elicit comments. However, it does shine a light on something the majority of the MSM would prefer to keep hidden.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/right-wing-media-bias-now-treated-as-normal-20231226-p5etmp.html Article and comments are not paywalled.
”
citizen and Outsider
BTW, facts have a left-wing bias because they expose right-wing lies.
That is the reason MSM of AUKUS countries either try to bury the facts or distort them.
“That is the reason MSM of AUKUS countries either try to bury the facts or distort them.”
—————————————————————-
While QUAD countries never lie i assume.?
Dud test match. Pakistan could have livened things up by selecting a few players from Balochistan but, as we all know, the selectors are biased and it’s the de facto Punjab Test Cricket Team.
It has to be pointed out that the Australian ANZAC class do mount two Typhoon automatic weapons stations on the rear superstructure, each armed with a 0.5 cal auto cannon mini gun. Probably sufficient to knock out drones, but too slow to act as a proper CIWS against missiles that slip pass the 32 ESSM battery contained in the 8 cell VLS system.
”
Rex Douglassays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 11:13 am
Disband all private employment services. Major Australian employment service accused of claiming credit for work jobseeker found herself https://t.co/4b4A6VQuvi— Greg Jericho (@GrogsGamut) December 26, 2023
Labor needs to do this.
”
Rex
Nothing new about it. I have personal experience on that issue.
A reputable Employment agency in Sydney supplied workforce (labour Hire) to a big and reputable Financial organisation.
I got job at that financial institution but no thanks to that employment agency. Since I did not have ABN, the financial institution insisted that I get payroll services through that agency although I preferred some other agency, who specialise in Payroll services for their clients at much cheaper rate. Long story short, that employment agency claimed credit for my employment. This happened a decade ago during LNP rule.
There are lots of twists and turns, denials and dumbness and many lies to be had before a pied piper or otherwise, successfully negotiates the misreported path to the next federal election in 2025.
gollsays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:11 pm
There are lots of twists and turns, denials and dumbness and many lies to be had before a pied piper or otherwise, successfully negotiates the misreported path to the next federal election in 2025.
———————————————————–
Whose paying the piper?
Quote: “he who pays the piper calls the tune”.
Nothing reputable in Sydney.
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
“Why would anyone make a robot of Elon Musk?”
Does anyone doubt that Elon Musk would make a robot in his own image?
Rewi says:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:40 pm
“Why would anyone make a robot of Elon Musk?”
Does anyone doubt that Elon Musk would make a robot in his own image?
__________
One wouldn’t be enough 😉
Rewisays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:40 pm
“Why would anyone make a robot of Elon Musk?”
Does anyone doubt that Elon Musk would make a robot in his own image?
————————————————————–
Can a robot be programmed to have a huge ego?.
Ego (Is Not a dirty Word): Skyhooks
If I did not have an ego I would not be here tonight
If I did not have an ego I might not think that I was right
If you did not have an ego you might not care the way you dressed
If you did not have an ego you’d just be like the rest
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Ego is not a dirty word
Don’t you believe what you’ve seen or heard
If Jesus had an ego he’d still be alive today
And if Nixon had no ego he might not be in decay
If you did not have an ego you might not care too much who won
If I did not have an ego I might just use a gun
https://twitter.com/Davis27271307/status/1728741518322864188
Lol
An Elon Musk robot would sing a different Skyhooks song:
‘Why don’t you all get f***ed!’
Oliver Suttonsays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:00 pm
An Elon Musk robot would sing a different Skyhooks song:
‘Why don’t you all get f***ed!’
————————————————————-
I’ll concede to that, that was a good choice for a Elon robot. Whose personal mini submarine loan offer had just been turned down by underwater cave rescuers because it was totally impractical in that environment.
Indeed, Entopy. Which prompted Musk to brand the lead rescuer a ‘pedo’.
Fun fact: ‘Elon Musk’ is an anagram of ‘Lone Skum’.
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
I have seen a lot of criticism today of USA by PB posters, who are born here. But no criticism of them at all. I am criticised for the same. I have feeling that it is bordering on racism. I never criticised nor considered BW a racist, who is a sharp critic of Modi and Indian government.
There are others like C@tmomma, Sceptic, Socrates, who criticised Modi and Indian government and I have no problem with that.
I consider Entropy attack vicious, personal, Hinduphobic, anti-Indian and bordering on racist.
Entropy criticism is exactly identical to Lars criticism of India.
Infact I have a suspicion that Entropy is Lars.
P.S. : A-E and Socrates consider AUKUS deal a dud deal for Australia. Infact a lot of posters on PB think AUKUS deal is a dud deal.
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:25 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
——————————————————————
Do you believe the money being spent by the Indian Government in their nuclear submarine building program a dud deal too?. If not can you explain why it is a dud deal for Australia to buy and build nuclear submarines but not India?.
PS: What makes you believe I’m white?. For all you know i could be a Sikh.
NSW have Pakistan on the ropes at 1-101.
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:35 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:25 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
——————————————————————
Do you believe the money being spent by the Indian Government in their nuclear submarine building program a dud deal too?. If not can you explain why it dud deal for Australia to buy and build nuclear submarines but not India?.
”
I am the first and only one on PB, who strongly advocated for Australia to go Nuclear( much before AUKUS deal) i.e Acquire Nuclear weapons to defend itself against its aggressors. Quite a few posters on this site argued with me against it. So why would I have a problem Australia acquiring Nuclear Submarines. Go for it Australia.
But AUKUS deal is dud deal.
A-E and Socrates explained many times why it is a dud deal and why it would have been better to go with France, which I am in full agreement.
IMO, It is a dud deal because
1. Scott Morrison stitched this deal in September 2021 to wedge ALP in 2022 election.
2. When the deal was announced in September 2021, there was not even outline of how many Submarines will be delivered with this deal, who will make them and deliver them and how long will it take to deliver them.
3. There was 18 month review time to work out how the deal will look like.
4. France was kept in dark till the night before the announcement of deal. It is a betrayal of Australian government on international scale. Is that how to deal with an ally?
5. France called back its Ambassadors from Australia and USA in complete rage. France never called back ambassador from USA in USA 270 year history.
6. Morrison was seen completely isolated in Italy G20 meeting.
7. Biden went out of his way to placate France by not being seen with Morrison.
8. ALP agreed to this deal in principle in order not to be wedged before election.
9. Now after 18 months of review, what do we get from AUKUS deal. Second hand Nuclear powered Submarine will be delivered some time next decade.
10. First new Submarine will be delivered in 2040s.
11. Now Australian government is giving 4 billion dollars to US in first 3 years to upgrade their Submarine yard. As far as I know no country in the world is doing such a thing.
AUKUS deal looks like a dud, works like a dud and delivers like a dud.
You’re dead right right Ven, It’s a dud deal.
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:35 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:25 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
——————————————————————
Do you believe the money being spent by the Indian Government in their nuclear submarine building program a dud deal too?. If not can you explain why it is a dud deal for Australia to buy and build nuclear submarines but not India?.
PS: What makes you believe I’m white?. For all you know i could be a Sikh.
”
Yes you could be a Silk. Maybe friend of Lars because Lars talking points are exactly identical to yours. That explains why you don’t criticise whom you consider White Australians with the same view as mine.
Rather than go same same as ScoMo on AUKUS and S3, Albo should have stood strong and left his options open. He’d be surging in the polls about now.
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:07 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:35 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:25 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
——————————————————————
While you answered why you believe the Australian deal was dud. Do you want to tackle the other question too?
Do you believe the money being spent by the Indian Government in their nuclear submarine building program a dud deal too?.
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:07 pm
—————————————————————-
While i note you like to play up that AUKUS is some “white man” pact. Lets actually look at the main players init.
So Australia:
Albo: Anglo/ Italian ethnicity.
Marles: Anglo/Saxon
Wong:East Asian
USA:
Biden: Anglo/Irish
Harris: African American
Austin: African American
Charles Q. Brown, Jr.: African American
Blinken: Anglo/Irish
UK:
Sunak: West Asian
Cleverly: Anglo/African
Patel: West Asian
Shapps: Jewish
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:16 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:07 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:35 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 3:25 pm
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.
”
Yes, if it is a dud deal to Australia because I am Australian citizen. Some people appear to think that only white Australians have Australian interest at heart.
——————————————————————
While you answered why you believe the Australian deal was dud. Do you want to tackle the other question too?
Do you believe the money being spent by the Indian Government in their nuclear submarine building program a dud deal too?.
”
Now you are moving goal posts. Without any basis you said I am against Australia acquiring nuclear Submarines. I explained why I am not against and why I think the current deal is dud deal. Honestly, I don’t know whether Indian submarine deal is dud deal or not since I don’t follow and care about Submarines deals around the globe. Since I am an Australian citizen, I only care about Australian security matters. I don’t know whether you read the news from Australian MSM that China may attack Australia in 3 years time.
To answer your question in another way is that Australia will not have even a second hand Nuclear Submarines for atleast another decade, where as India already has a Nuclear Submarine at work and could acquire a few more by end of this decade. Whether it is dud deal or not doesn’t matter because they have the capacity and Australia doesn’t. China has 12 Nuclear Submarines and it appears you don’t seem to have a problem with that when it may attack Australia in 3 years time as per Australian media.
This is my final post on this topic with you.
Albo: Anglo/ Italian ethnicity.
Er, Italian genetically, but his dad had no part in his upbringing and no influence on his ethnic identity.
Wong: East Asian
Er, “Born in Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia to a Chinese Malaysian father and an English Australian mother” (Wikipedia)
Entropy
“ Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.”
Ven answered this question very well at 4:02pm and I agree with his logic.
Some further points:
1. Why do you consider India’s expenditure on nuclear submarines to be a dud deal? India has achieved SSN and now SSBN launch and commissioning with indigenous design and construction, which is a remarkable technical achievement. They have spent billions doing this, but still only a fraction of what Australia will pay US and UK under AUKUS.
2. I don’t agree with Ven on Australia acquiring a nuclear (weapon) deterrent, because I am concerned it might create a nuclear arms race in SE Asia. Plus Australia is already covered by the US nuclear umbrella agreement.
3.India is a different story. It has no US security guarantee and already has two hostile neighbours with nuclear weapons – China and Pakistan – so its desire to have nuclear weapons and a delivery triad via SSBNs is more understandable. As I said before, I think India’s defence policy is rational relative to its threats.
4. AUKUS ties Australia into a lot of commitments, at very high cost, in return for something we could have gotten anyway under the French contract sooner and for far less cost. America is doing AUKUS for access to Australian bases. UK is doing AUKUS for access to Australian money for its bankrupt shipyards. Why are we doing it? So politicians who know nothing about SSNs can feel important.
5. Those whose views align very closely to the USA see AUKUS as good because it ties Australia very closely to the USA for security. That makes no sense, because AUKUS does not give us any binding security deal we don’t already have. It is a technology transfer agreement, not a treaty. Meanwhile we are giving USA basing rights that most other countries in Asia, even US allies, charge the USA rentals for, not pay them money. Morrison sold us out.
6. The cost of AUKUS as proposed is so high it will harm other areas of defence capability. It has already cost a thousand Adelaide jobs, and effectively put back local submarine manufacture a decade. Political minders and consultants think its great. They get lots of trips to London and Washington.
Harris: African American
“Her mother, Shyamala Gopalan, was a Tamil Indian biologist … Kamala Harris’s Jamaican American father, Donald J. Harris, is of African and Irish ancestry” (Wikipedia)
Oliver Suttonsays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:37 pm
Albo: Anglo/ Italian ethnicity.
Er, Italian genetically, but his dad had no part in his upbringing and no influence on his ethnic identity.
Wong: East Asian
Er, “Born in Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia to a Chinese Malaysian father and an English Australian mother” (Wikipedia)
——————————————————————-
So on that Wong should read Anglo/East Asian. I was only doing it quickly and pointing out that many of the people in high positions directly involved in “AUKUS”. Didn’t really fit Ven’s definition of it being a Anglo Saxon club.
I’m happy if anyone wants to point out what their ethnicity is exactly. I didn’t really research it to any real degree.
”
Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:31 pm
Vensays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:07 pm
—————————————————————-
While i note you like to play up that AUKUS is some “white man” pact. Lets actually look at the main players init.
So Australia:
Albo: Anglo/ Italian ethnicity.
Marles: Anglo/Saxon
Wong:East Asian
USA:
Biden: Anglo/Irish
Harris: African American
Austin: African American
Charles Q. Brown, Jr.: African American
Blinken: Anglo/Irish
UK:
Sunak: West Asian
Cleverly: Anglo/African
Patel: West Asian
”
Wrong. I never said that it is a deal between white people. I said that you don’t seem to have a problem when people you consider to be white Australians criticise AUKUS deal. But you have a problem with with me criticising AUKUS deal. That is racist and slanderous.
Another wrong. The original deal was signed between Biden, Boris Johnson and Scott Morrison. So your table is wrong.
That is it. I will not answer your posts anymore.
Poll Bludger over the holidays is always lively. 😀
‘The original deal was signed between Biden, Boris Johnson and Scott Morrison.’
That’s Boris Johnson, of Turkish ancestry?
Socratessays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:39 pm
Entropy
“ Entropysays:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 2:30 pm
If the deal for Australia to get submarines, lets say any type. Was being done via the Quad and not AUKUS. Would a certain poster still have a problem with it?.”
Ven answered this question very well at 4:02pm and I agree with his logic.
Some further points:
1. Why do you consider India’s expenditure on nuclear submarines to be a dud deal? India has achieved SSN and now SSBN launch and commissioning with indigenous design and construction, which is a remarkable technical achievement. They have spent billions doing this, but still only a fraction of what Australia will pay US and UK under AUKUS.
——————————————————————
I have no idea if it is or not. Though generally starting a program off from scratch is a lot more expensive then being part of an existing program or buying from an existing producer such as France.
Note: I take any financial details released by the Modi Government with a big grain of salt.
Socrates says:
Wednesday, December 27, 2023 at 4:39 pm
…. Plus Australia is already covered by the US nuclear umbrella agreement.
…’
As we now know in spades this is entirely subject to the US national interest and in particular in whatever incumbent happens to think that might be.
‘covered’ may in fact mean ‘not covered at all, depending on, for example Trump’s whim.
I get your point about triggering a regional arms race. I have close to zero faith in our being ‘covered’ by the US ‘nuclear umbrella’ whatever that means. Do we have a guarantee that the US will deliver a strike in response to a first nuclear strike on Australia?
What we have is a guarantee that the US will consult with Australia should Australia be attacked by a third party. IMO, This is essentially meaningless. It certainly does not equate to anything like a treaty guaranteeing nuclear cover.
Ven
Ignore Entropy. I think you views are rational.
I think any Australian taxpayer should be allowed to criticise AUKUS 😐
Labor was presented with a fait accompli on Aukus, but scepticism in the party is rightly rising.
Kim Carr, 22nd March 2023
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/22/labor-was-presented-with-a-fait-accompli-on-aukus-nuclear-submarines-but-scepticism-in-the-party-is-rightly-rising-kim-carr
From The Guardian:
“On the morning of 16 September 2021, the federal ALP caucus was presented with the shadow cabinet’s fait accompli of support for the Morrison government’s Aukus submarine deal.
Caucus members were told that on the previous afternoon, the leader, Anthony Albanese and several shadow ministers had received a two-hour briefing on the proposal from the government. No documents were provided at the briefing. On the basis of that, and the shadow ministry’s endorsement, Labor MPs were expected to leap into bipartisan support for the Aukus deal.
Caucus did not endorse the deal. No vote was taken because a vote was not proposed. The caucus simply noted the report.
This was to be the biggest procurement in Australian history. Many questions were asked – I raised some of them myself at the meeting. Many remain unanswered.
Given the scale and implications of this project and the fundamental assumption that we should be seeking to secure the best technology the country can afford, it is not unreasonable that these questions continue to be raised.
The suspension of critical judgment or the signing of blank cheques is simply not reasonable.
Much has been said of the historic changes in our region that are claimed to be the basis for undertaking this project. How much of that understanding goes to changes that will not be reversed by wishful thinking of the capacity of great and powerful friends to turn back the tides of history?”
What we do know is Labor has supported most, if not all, LNP policies during the Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison terms.
And Labor’s priority is the USA.
How did the world get to be like this, a list of non-fictional suggestions
Read in Guardian Australia: https://apple.news/AnnjH7NZ1SOCIr4FMEXAteg
“I said that you don’t seem to have a problem when people you consider to be white Australians criticise”
I actually have no idea what skin tone anyone that posts on here has. You seem to be assuming a lot with your statement. That i have someway of gleaming the ethnicity of someone via their post. Unless of course they actually state it.
Boerwar
If Australia ever did “need” nuclear weapons, we could develop them. But if we are not tied into USA – China wars I think the odds of us needing them are very low.
Frankly, if Australia had a defence agreement with France and India we could do the same quite quickly if we had to. They could also be fired as kiloton-range warheads in MBDA SCALP missiles that can be launched from the French SSNs. I’d rather we didn’t have to.
Re Ven @4:44 PM. ”Sunak: West Asian”
[Pedantry]
Mr Sunak’s ancestry is Indian (Punjabi). The Indian sub-continent (former British India plus some bordering countries) is generally referred to as “South Asia”. The term “West Asia” doesn’t seem to be much used. It includes Iran plus the Asian parts of the Middle East, Turkey and the Caucasus region.