Australia Day festivities prevented me putting this thread up in a timely fashion, but better late than never. Barack Obama has polled 55 per cent of the vote in today’s Democratic primary in South Carolina, which has the country’s third highest proportion of African-Americans behind Mississippi and Louisiana. Hillary Clinton took second place with 27 per cent, ahead of John Edwards on 18 per cent.
Agree, Aussie but much more has come after Soeharto, as they have moved resources from East Timor to Papua, also Aceh should not go unnnoticed.
What i cannot stand is this view by people that the economy and mighty dollar comes before human rights and killing and torturing people time after time, this in the end is the basic notion of their arguments without looking at what is underlying what occurred. Death and suffering seems to mean little to many.
Also the part that the Western powers played in supporting Suharto and his cronies and the good old world bank whose views tend to be about privatisations and debt collection and not about helping people.
Actually i was just pointing out some references in regards to the facts Adam which are true because i know Indonesians who lived their at the time and they tell me very much similar to what these articles state.
Adam sorry i do not agree with you.
West Papua is about grabbing resources Adam for the good of the Indonesians and the West and not about the West Papuans, sorry don’t agree with you again.
Mayo @161
‘Nor for that matter does having a good intent absolve you of responsibility if your action turns out to be detrimental.’ Err, let’s see…
Psst but he’s a Kantian too just like you know who @ 184 ‘he saved Indonesia’ blah blah. (leftist) OMG etc etc…not quite Sheridan Kardigan Kountry but Knitting up to it…
‘Indonesia is our most important neighbour’ Discuss. But no history lectures please. Well not ‘leftist ones’.
Bung Karno’s wife has described Suharto as Indon’s Pol Pot, Adam. Last time I looked she didn’t seem ‘leftist’ to me.
Anecdotal evidence about historical events is notoriously unreliable. You can speak to elderly Germans who tell you that the Jews all went away on holidays – what does that prove?
Grabbing resources is not the same as genocide. I agree that Indonesia (under Sukarno, not Suharto) grabbed West Papua. I disagree that either of them practised genocide there as you stated.
Heres a report from the University of Sydney – August 2005!
http://www.wpngnc.org/genocide.htm
157 – I’ve been saying that for two threads so far 🙁
200 – Please god in heaven tell me you are not condoning the behavior of the Indonesians in west papua, because there aren’t many things in a political blog thread that can get me really annoyed, and that would be one of them.
#198
OK – lets brings things a little more into focus. We both agree that the Crusades/Normans whatever is not a valid subject of an apology. However – you are ducking that question concerning the here and now of your lifetime and your role in this current context. At what point do you believe that you have a responsibility? I believe that my actions in my life should be measured relative to the bigger issues and bigger obstacles that exist. I don’t know what I could have done to stop the stolen generation issue – I even have some underlying assumptions that this was executed with best of intentions – but I also currently believe that it was an example of something that was stuffed up on a big scale. In this particular scenario I am not carrying a basket of guilt – but I do believe that a segment of the population feel aggrieved/abused.
My question to you is – when do you personally feel you are responsible and/or accountable for with respect to things that happen in this country (good or bad)?
I am disputing the use of the word “genocide.” Genocide is the deliberate extermination of an ethnic or national community. The Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, Rwanda. Nothing like that has happened in West Papua. Lots of abuses do not constitute genocide.
Adam,
Joe Lieberman IS showing his loyalty. His only loyalty though is to Israel. McCain is the most pro Israel candidate so Lieberman is for McCain. Full stop.
You may be right on that point Adam. They haven’t yet rounded them up & put them on cattle trucks yet but all dissent is met at the barrel of a gun. That report is an excellent read!
I’m guessing that this will me pivotal.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/CGVBc
All the candidates are pro-Israel, duh.
s/me/be
davidoff @ 207,
Are you sure this is even the right question?
I mean, I probably don’t personally feel accountable for much at all except what I personally do. (And believe me, that is fertile enough territory for apologies!).
But I think that Governments should, under some circumstances, apologise for some past wrongs. And I would put the unlawful invasion of Australia in that category, along with judicial/police blind eyes being turned to massacres.
But it seems to me the Stolen Generation is a more complex case and I am yet to be convinced that a Government apology is required (remembering that any Government apology is a major deal with far-reaching consequences).
I’m guessing it won’t be in the least bit pivotal. So the Kennedys (some of them anyway) support Obama. Big deal. How many primaries did Ted Kennedy win in 1980?
Oh…a semantic game then. Hint: Deliberate immigration of large numbers of Indonesians to a community to breed another out of existence still results in the absolute loss of that community. This is coupled with the systematic humans rights abuses and the suppression of local culture to the point where nothing that can be said to be ‘west papuan’ will actually exist.
A ethnic or national community will no longer exist, but because it doesnt involve the more explicit means we can dust our hands, say its not genocide and therefore it’s a local problem for the Indonesians to deal with.
This is the truly gutless use of rhetoric that makes the left look bad, the willful parsing of words to create a separate reality that enables people to not have to confront an objective truth. There’s no Papuans in ovens yet, so we can just let the Indonesians sort the few trouble makers out.
Christ
So if you don’t take the word of people who may have experienced it who do you then believe Adam?
Could you please provide me with some internet information in regards to your fallacy.
And on West Papua, what would happen if a few people suddenly protested Adam? How do you think a big power like Indonesia would react.
So colonising an Island is okay? I call it a moral crime in support of the American companies who exploit the oil, copper and gold on the island. The Tni suppress any West Papuans who wish to protest such exploitation through rape, murder and torture but according to some people it doesn’t happen and if it does it is okay.
Dyno, what law was broken by the British settlement of Australia?
Please marky, would the Indonesians lie to us? They’ve been so good in the past!
No British law, Adam. But it’s hardly cricket to appropriate someone’s place without their permission.
#214
Dyno
Yes, I think it is the right question.
It comes down to you level and scope of engagement into this country.
marky, if you are going to systematically misrepresent everything I say I won’t bother arguing with you. I didn’t say “colonising an Island is okay.” I rejected your assertion that Indonesia had practised genocide in West Papua. And Sukarno, who was the Indonesian president at the time, was as anti-western as you are. He annexed West Papua for nationalist reasons, not to help western corporations.
s/you/your
There is pro-Israel and there is bomb the whole f*ckin Muslim world if need be pro-Israel.
Then don’t use the word “unlawful” when you have no grounds for doing so, just as a piece of rhetorical fluff that makes your argument dound better.
Adam seeing that you support Hilary could you please tell us what her amazing policies are for the future of this wondrous democrat nation called America?
Back on topic:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=276341
This is yet another reason why Hillary Clinton should not be the Democrat candidate. Any politician that treats pledges as arbitrary should be dismissed. No more Bush, no more Howard and no more Clintons. I acknowledge that leaves very few politicians standing 😛
However, Hillary is still hot favourite for Democratic candidacy and in my view is likely to get it.
Harry, Hillary Clinton is a Senator for New York. Do you think any candidate is going to out-Israel her?
I’m not your research assistant marky.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/splash/
Adam,
You’re not trying to ban rhetorical fluff from this site, are you?
And surely some recognition of pre-existing property rights is a fundamental part of our legal system?
This is happening just above us –
Expressions of Papuan nationalism or resistance to environmental exploitation are brutally put down.
You Indonesians can’t just come and shoot us…you’ll never find a peaceful ending in
heaven! You listen to what we say! Don’t come here with your law and your behaviour.
You’ve got your own country – stay there! We Papuans never had such things happen
here before! From Suharto to Megawati you have raped Papua’s riches, killing our people,
stealing from us like thieves. Rapists! You are raping us! You’ve done the lot and it’s
unaccounted for! All the help that people have given to Indonesia and all the things that
you have done to us here, don’t close your eyes! We all have our eyes and we can see! But
what we can see in your eyes is you have no love, no compassion- you don’t care about us!
You understand or not? Even though we are uneducated we never had these kinds of
things before! This is genocide! You are worse than anything I can describe with all the
things you’ve done – killing and raping! We had a peaceful life before you came!
Video recording, female Papuan protester, flag raising, Trikora field, Jayapura, 1 December 2004
#229
and for the alternative view ….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iTUIb7CDs0
Clinton/McCain is the Israel/neocon dream match up. a no lose matchup.
But Joe can be of better use to his sponsor supporting McCain.
Hey adam, have you explained your your rejection of the west papuan situation as genocide is more than sophistry yet?
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group.
Doesn’t need guns or anything like that really does it? Just the loss of anything one might identify as west papuan.
Adam you are so much fun to communicate with because you twist things in very many peculiar ways.
I never said Genocide has occurred in West Papua.
Will agree that you “did not say anything good about the merits of colonising in West Papua although you did assert that genocide their had not occurred but colonisation had.
In regards to West Papua and yes i agree Sukarno for nationalist reasons did occupy it but it was the mass killer Suharto who allowed the west to exploit it’s wealth.
OK that’s all the fisking of leftoid piffle I feel like doing for tonight. Sweet dreams comrades.
Be careful Erytnicam he will never agree that he made some mistakes.
leftoid piffle? Comrades? Glens managed to hijack Adams account! SOMEONE MUST WARN HIM BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!
Marky – The West Papuan situation is absolutely one of the most disgraceful and overlooked things (although I concede around the world that is a much fought after title) that is occurring, and for someone who is respected on this board as being intelligent to portray the false impression that genocide is not occurring, that the West Papuan people do not face an existential threat, for this to come from someone whom other people might respect or determine their opinions from is disappointing to use the type of language permitted on this board.
#236
Sweat dreams mate.
Marky Mark used the word “genocide” at 192, in a general reference to Indonesia but not specifically to West Papua. It was Aussieguru at 194 who used it in reference to West Papua. My apologies for miss-stating that. But even in reference to Indonesis as a whole, the term is not correct. No-one has committed genocide against anyone in Indonesia.
That’s definitely all, folks.
Time i went also, go to bed thinking about poor old Soeharto and how he saved the Indonesians from democracy, trade unions and adequate health care and from owning their resources. Take care everyone and its good night from me and its good night from her sorry him.
#241
Adam
And you promised to go – shame on you!
Adam – * Indonesia has not practised “genocide” in West Papua, it has practised colonialism. There are still plenty of West Papuans.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard from someone with a postgrad level education. Guys, there are still plenty of Jews and Rwandans, sorry to alarm you before. That’s what I took issue with. Your casual dismissal of an existential threat to an ethnic group as ‘oh, it’s colonialism, theres plenty of them left.’
I mean damn that’s callous.
Maybe death by a thousand cuts would be the description but it is still DEATH!
More on the Kennedy endorsement saga from the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/us/politics/28kennedy.html?ref=politics
I admire your postings most of the time Adam BUT here I disagree.
246- Thank god we can get back to American politics.
This is the ABC take on the post SC Bill/Hillary fallout.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/28/2147670.htm
Bill loves Hillary in the same manner Charlie loved the golden ticket.