Australia Day festivities prevented me putting this thread up in a timely fashion, but better late than never. Barack Obama has polled 55 per cent of the vote in today’s Democratic primary in South Carolina, which has the country’s third highest proportion of African-Americans behind Mississippi and Louisiana. Hillary Clinton took second place with 27 per cent, ahead of John Edwards on 18 per cent.
GG,
I have generally resolved not to enter into slanging matches no more. But in this case I will make an exception:
Tell me again why should I apologise to KR,
for him calling me a paedophile perhaps? our virtuous saint seems to have dropped that little details from his rants.
or for having to put up with pop-analysis taken in slabs from Wikipedia and RealClearpolitics and high school economics level pronouncements of doom?
or for his try hard attempts to bait Adam with the references to Wolfe?
I think he was most upset about you calling him a plagiarist. In the absence of any conclusive proof, then your defence is poor.
As I said, it is up to you. However, the vibe here is that you have over stepped the line.
I see GG are you the people’s court?
Yeah Judge Growler!
whilst enjoying this tete-a-tete immensely perhaps the right honourable bilbo of pollbludger perhaps should be master of decorum and schoolyard disputes
“whilst i strongly disagree with what you say i defend to the end your right to say it” is the maxim on this site here i believe
(unless you are being a complete fargin icehole)
#97 ROTFLOL
#103
I formally give my endorsement to GG.
And I really want to see a re-run of the hanging upside down episode!
#76
Hemingway – the link and date provided focus on a Democrat race including Al Gore. Projections without Al Gore are for the moment the same in terms of the other candidates – however, the rate of change over time and the trends (which we are all interested in) clearly show Obama as graining real traction whereas Clinton to loosing ground.
http://www.pollster.com/08-US2-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
ESJ- With Suharto finally off the critical list (phrase plagiarised), I’ve been doing some checking up. On the 8th Jan, Ronnie Biggs was reported to have had a heart attack and pneumonia according to this very, very sick site. And I thought I was morbid. You can follow the health of various famous people on the blogs.
http://www.deathlist.net/
Noise on the internet seems to be confirming the idea of an imminent Al Gore endorsement. Nothing of substance yet – just noise – but noticeable noise.
101
Edward StJohn
I did not call anyone a child molester.
I called you a ‘serial abuser’ ie you repeatedly abuse people on this forum, in what looks like a pathological way.
Show me where I ever used the word ‘ paedophile’?
Go on, show me! Because you cannot, because I would never use that language, even for a grub like you.
You are however, a serial abuser, and I stand by that claim, just as you have proved it, over and over.
My take on the legacy of Pres. Suharto of Indonesia:
1. He institutionalised state sanctioned violence. I remember very clearly in the 70s where he was interviewed about what would he do about the oppositions. Suharto, a man few words, simply said: “I will thump them”. If that is not a sanctioned state violence, then I don’t know what it is.
2. He institutionalised corruption by letting his family to set an example that to be corrupt is OK. He himself might not be corrupt but his wife, children and grand children were all corrupt. During his supreme rule, the master franchise of every major economic and business opportunity belonged to his family. To be granted the franchise, you have to pay a commission or an upfront payment or project marked-ups or a slice of free carry equity or all the above. He set bad example, so corruption has become a way of life, a culture and a cancer to the Indonesian society
3. He institutionalised the Dual Function or “Dwi Fungsi” of the Armed Forces. In fact, it was Triple Function as the Armed Forces had the security function to protect the Republic, the social function to ensure the social values were protected and the economic function so that Armed Forces can participate in business and generate their own incomes and be independent of the State. In other words, the elevated the role of the Armed Forces above and beyond the Civil Society. In Suharto’s years, the Armed Forces were supreme, completely dominating the Civil Society.
4. He institutionalised discrimination of the minorities, especially the Chinese. He banned the Chinese from using the own chinese name; the speaking and teaching of chinese language and the chinese have to have a special code embedded in the ID card so that they can be identified easily as “chinese”. The reason is that a lot of Indonesian chinese have been in Indonesia for hundred of years and generations, through inter-marriages and other environmental factors, they “look” just like any other “native” Indonesians. In later years of his rule, he became “religious” via his Mecca Haj Pilgrim, and turned a blind eye on Islam Vs Christian community in places such as Maluku and Central Sulawesi.
5. He institutionalised the “Rule of Power” rather than the “Rule of Law” by basically abolishing the concept of power sharing and balance of power. He emasculated the institutions such as the Parliaments, the Judiciaries and the Press. He even put the Police Forces as part of the Armed Forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) and answered directly to him or through the nation wide security and military structure he has setup. For example, in every province of Indonesia, there was a civilian Governor plus a military Governor. Guess who has more power.
6. He institutionalised the dependency of business upon the State, especially the big business. To start a major project, especially natural resources project, the big business derived the franchise from his family, the capital from state banks or government-backed capital from the private or NGO banks. If the project is in trouble, the Government has to bail it out by additional capital or guarantee. This what the local the “triple whammy” business. Whammy one, the franchise was ripped off from the people, whammy 2 the project capital was provided by the State and whammy 3 if the project is in trouble the State again has to rescue it. The real losers are the people. Everyone else wins. Indonesia has everything and rich in natural resources. It has people, water, very fertile volcanic soil, oil, coal, timber, spices, strategic location, unique flora and fauna etc etc. It has everything. It is also a very beautiful country. Yet about 70% of the people are poor, in 2007, estimated nominal per capita GDP is US$1,812. The wealth gap between the elites, the middle class and the poors are unimaginable. There was a great hope in the 80s and early 90s that Suharto’s economic miracle was going to reduce this gap and provide a real platform to reduce the poverty of the “Wong Cilik” (The little people).
The dream was dashed in the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997/1998. Alas, the so-called economic miracle was built on the sand of corruption and greed of the elites and middle class. The elites and middle class survived, but the poors became poorer, that is the legacy of Suharto.
Any links Davidoff? Stampede for VP?…or norty gullible green plot?
PS I think KR has more than adequately dealt with ESJ.
KR, I do accept that ESJ’s plagiarism accusation entitles you to a few return volleys of a kind that I might normally delete. Nonetheless, it’s a bit cute of you to rage that you had never called anyone a paedophile or a child molester on the unstated basis that you had only said molester.
With all due respect could both ladies take their handbags to private messages? TIA
Finnigans- He will be sadly missed by no-one.
If things continue to degenerate between Hillary and Obama, Hillary will be hoping Obama would not gain to much ground under those circumstances. As the main antagonist she must be fearful of the Superdelegates/Edwards people deciding.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/us/politics/28superdelegates.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
114
William Bowe
It means to ‘molest’, and I’ve seen ESJ do quite a bit of it on this forum.
Please explain how anyone could accuse him (or anyone, for that matter) of sexaully abusing anyone in print!!
That makes no sense, unless you want to take it out of context, and ascribe a meaning to it which it could NOT possibly have.
I never intended it in any sexual sense, and was actually quite shocked that anyone could construe it as such! It referred to his activities here (I don’t know him, or anything about his outside life), and these were all written abuse.
I’ve seen plenty of ESJ abusing other people here, and molesting them too. I never made any sexual reference about him.
Non-sexual meanings of “molester” have fallen almost entirely out of use. Nonetheless, I grant you that it’s unconscionable for ESJ to inflate “molester” to “paedophile”. Nobody doubted that it amounted to anything other than name-calling.
KR,
ESJ is not necessarily a man.
He/she/them has shown particlar sensitivity in the past to sexual attack issues i.e rape, molestation etc. which is most likely genuine.
I accept your explanation of your use of words.
ESJ also has a particular slant on contributing that leads to the sly jab and inconsiderate remark. Not edifying but, hey, this is a debate not a coffee shop.
ESJ,
Don’t be a prat all your life.
Dr. Judge Growler
I am happy to bow to the verdict of the people’s court, honourable Dr Judge Growler.
It appears that the troll’s goal has been achieved with the inadvertent assistance of other bludgers. Now, on with the show. Cue cartoons and caricatures.
PS Is it only my spell checker which doesn’t recognise “bludgers”?
Thankyou William, because I just went back and had a look at that evenings posts, and here’s a couple, with time stamps:
410
Kirribilli Removals Says:
January 6th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
jen
Don’t take crap from mr smarmyjohn, he’s a molester from way back, and is still licking his wounds from the monumental rout his howard mob copped. So he’s only here to take swipes at those he thinks he can damage.
Much later that same evening, and long after my post, which ESJ did not even comment about:
448
Edward StJohn Says:
January 6th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Please Asanque,
A little more analysis and a little less personal abuse. I am not inclined to expend the energy on insult and counter insult.
449
jen Says:
January 6th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
ESJ
ahem.
I think insulting fellow bloggers is one of your main games,my friend
So if ESJ thought I’d called him a child molester, how come he did not even comment about my post that same evening? Instead, he started another tiff with another poster, and he was caught at it, once again by another.
If he seriously thought I’d accused him of such a thing, (which is patently absurd in the context!), then he would have reacted to it immediately, but he spent hours chatting on other topics.
I rest my case. He’s a serial abuser of other posters, and likes to make snide inferences which he thinks cannot be challenged.
He’s wrong, they can, and he’s been caught out doing it more than once.
KR & ESJ – Seems like a couple of little things have been misconstrued to me, that’s all. Anyway, is it worth getting stroppy in discussions about a surreal election in a weird country full of creationists?
I think the whole drawn-out election show is more than anything an opportunity to get a few laughs, and perhaps make a few fun bets. Nothing will change in the US much, regardless of the result. So, why not just sit back, relax and enjoy the grand farce?
Finnigans (or anyone else with a good knowledge of Indonesia)- It may be my naivety, which is almost without bounds, but I am continually amazed that Indonesia ( which has 220M people, mostly moderate Muslims, and the 15th or so biggest world economy ) is such a minor player in international politics, particularly from the US point of view. We hear endlessly about the US politician’s opinion of every small country in the Middle East but never Indonesia. Surely Indonesia could play a more important role in the world esp the current East/West war.
And back to the election…
Interesting ‘movement’ in polling for the Repubs in FL.
Reuters/Zogby Poll: Romney, McCain Tied in Florida
Mitt Romney has drawn even with Sen. John McCain in Florida’s Republican presidential race, according to the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby tracking poll. Both men receive 30% support.
“And there is drama in the wings as Mike Huckabee has surpassed Rudy Giuliani, 14% to 13%. Giuliani, who has invested most of his time and campaign treasure into Tuesday’s Florida vote, is finding his support slipping away. In yesterday’s tracking poll, he was in third place.”
Also strongly recommend this site. While http://www.electoral-vote.com is great, this one actually estimates the delegates from the polls.
As you will see Obama has a way to go before he can clinch it.
http://uselectionatlas.org/POLLS/PRESIDENT/2008D/polls.php
The US Election atlas also is great to look back at previous races.
120
Greeensborough Growler
“ESJ is not necessarily a man.”
yep, I think he’s proven that beyond any doubt! LOL
Was is appalling about Suhartos’ death is the appearance at his funeral of Paul Keating and Australian attorney general Robert McLelland, to support such a barbaric corrupt individual is disgraceful.
127
John Ryan
Agreed, although Obama has been catching up, Clinton looks to be way out in front, despite a bit of narrowing of late.
I’d still like to see him make up some ground, but alas, that would tend to make the Hill-Billy show even nastier (and they ain’t even hit 2nd gear yet!), so in another way in would be a better outcome for a quick kill on Woozy Tuesday.
The other alternative reading is one Possum alluded to, ie the primay Democrat polling has been pretty dreadful, and in the SC race for example, Obama support was massively discounted. He brings out the voters and the pollsters get taken by surprise.
It’s an interesting race.
Thank you for the link Diogenes – interesting. I will be sad if Sydney Pollack has the big c – good actor.
The interesting thing about the Democrat race is if B.H Obama comes close can he force himself onto the ticket as veep as the price of party unity?
On Suharto is $15B that much in the scheme of things for a south east asian dictator?
#125 Diogenes: You are right about the size of Indonesia in term of population. In fact, it is now hitting close to 240m. The problem with Indonesia has always been that the human capital has never been allowed to flourish. It is the consequences of historical, social/cultural and religious impediments. Happy to start a thread on this topic if WB would entertain the idea. Indonesia is a classic case of quantity triumphs over quality.
If you look back, during the times of the Republic’s first President, the old Bung Karno (Sukarno) during the 50s and 60s. He was very active and prominent in the international power plays. He was very good at playing the East Vs the West Cold War. In fact, he created the Third Block called the Non Alignment Emerging Countries such as Indonesia, India, Yugoslavia, Egypt, PRC etc. In 1955, he organised the first Asia-Africa Conference at the city of Bandung, Java where for the first time the Head of State of these countries met independently outside the auspicious of the UN. Suharno accused the UN being the puppet of the West, especially the US. Sukarno was a great orator, charismatic and very popular in the Third World. But unfortunately he was no economic manager. He sent Indonesia into bankruptcy. The economy of Indonesia in the 60s was like what it is now in Zimbabwe. He famously told the UN, US and other donors “To hell with your aid” and pulled Indonesia out of the UN.
His demise gave rise to Suharto who never cared about international politics. He was about power, hence money, especially for his family and cronies. During the 32 years of Suharto’s rule, he completely subjugated the people and basically keep them down in total compliance and made them stupid. The Indonesian people are still trying to get over then Suharto years and to start thinking and deciding for themselves again.
KR, yes certainly.
The polling correctly estimated Obama’s win in Iowa, over estimated his vote in NH and under estimated it in SC.
It’s all over the place, but it’s their “likely voter” models that make it very tricky to poll for primaries/caucuses, especially in a year with unprecedented turn-out and new voters (at least on the Democratic side).
Diogenes, have you read the Alan Clark diaries ? I think you might find them interesting.
For Keating and the AG not to support our nearest neighbour would be stupid for our country. All very well to condemn people you can invade, but when you have to live with your neighbour and it is more likely they can invade you than vice versa, a bit of human dignity and respect is basic diplomacy.
Diogenes @ 125 – One of the main reasons that the US said little about Indonesia in the recent past is that Lord Downer of Mayo actively discouraged them from involving themselve on what he consided was our patch.
Its a position that backfired disasterously for the people of East Timor when he stopped Madeline Albright from going to Indonesia to warn the TNI off carrying out their plan to destroy ET if its people chose independence. Downer assured her that we could and would deal with it. Howard eventually did – after Milord stuffed it up good and proper.
To be fair, Keating didn’t want the US more engaged either. I note he was at the murderous tyrant’s funeral today.
Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country, but I don’t know how much cred this gives them with the Arabic Muslim East. In any event, honest brokers do best when both sides are seeking a resolution and I see little evidence that the West, or at least the American part of it, does…yet.
And just for the record:
Kirribilli Removals Says:
January 6th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
jen
Don’t take crap from mr smarmyjohn, he’s a molester from way back, and is still licking his wounds from the monumental rout his howard mob copped. So he’s only here to take swipes at those he thinks he can damage.
343
Edward StJohn Says:
January 9th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Perhaps KR you would have more credibility if you didnt resort to abuse like calling people paed..ophi.es (like you did on Sunday) when your inanity is exposed.
So three days after I called his repeated attacks and snide comments the work of a ‘molester’, he comes on and claims I called him a “paedophile”! Go figure, as they say!
Oh, and of course, I’m ‘inane’, and a ‘plaigarist’, as well!
ESJ, you take the cake. Pompous git of the first order, and a snide little grub to boot.
136
MayoFeral
Xanana was there too!
Here we go again the scaremongers with their invasion crap.
What motive does Indonesia have to invade Australia and if according to yourself that they are powerful well a better hide under the bed, this view is ridiclous. Yep a country the size of ours and they wish to invade what next, i suppose i better watch out for Papua New Guinea.
Jasmine supporting a dictator and a murdering tyrant should not be in our interests. Simple.
#113 – no links yet – just noise without substance, but credible noise just the same
Enough, KR.
Jasmine, we should be dancing in the streets now that that bastard is dead. IMHO to have a former PM and our current AG go to the funeral and our current PM to attack him with a warm piece of lettuce is absolutely disgraceful. The man was a dictator and the only thing good i have to say about him was that he was anti-communist, nevertheless he was a tyrant and he invaded East Timor this man should not be honoured by Australia.
ESJ did you watch the BBC TV series ‘The Alan Clark Diaries’ with John Hurt excellent viewing i must say.
It will be a sad day indeed to have a Prime Minister of Australia to apologise for something that happened 60 + years and perpetrated by a different generation who had only the best interests of the children they removed at heart. It’s not like they mass murdered aboriginals, sure the Japanese should apologise to China for using chem/bio weapons and the other atrocities and the Germans for the holocaust but correct me if im wrong but the Australians that ‘stole’ children were not trying to kill anybody they saw the plight of the aboriginals and were for the most of it doing it out of sympathy to their living conditions.
As far as im concerned Nelson ought to attack Rudd for this disgrace, the First Australians deserve better and they need help but an apology is not what they ‘need’. They need stable communities, they need jobs and better infrastructure. Kevin Rudd should be well aware that at least half the country if not more do not support apologising for a so called ‘crime’ that this generation of Australians did not commit.
#119
William –
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/molest
Thats consistent with my understanding of the intent of usage.
But this subject is a red hearing – but we already know that – right?
141
William Bowe
Quite!
I did watch Glen. Books were better though.
KR @ 138 – Maybe Xanana just went to make sure the bastard was really dead. I’m expecting a huge turnout at my funeral for the same reason. The local hardware stores will probably make a small fortune on tomato stake sales, too! 😉
I didnt read the book worth buying?
Glen
firstly, the aboriginal community has made it crystal clear that, symbolism or not, they would like an apology.
So if it doesn’t actually hurt anyone, why not give them one?
Secondly, a basic tenet of our form of democracy is that ‘the government’ is a never dying entity, regardless of the various political shadings of those ‘in government’. Thus, my local council is responsible for decisions made by councillors thirty years ago, even though they were obviously silly decisions even at the time (and often these decisions have resulted in compensation, payable by present ratepayers who were not residents of the shire when the original decision was made); incoming governments do not (as a rule) break contracts entered into by former governments; and incoming governments are responsible for debts run up by previous governments, even if the party of the incoming government opposed this expenditure at the time.
So, regardless of what their intentions were at the time, the Australian government is responsible for the effects of its decisions on the stolen generation.
By your logic, Australia should never have sought compensation from Britain for the damages caused by the experiments at Maralinga.
Jasmine’s right, better to ‘talk with the enemy’ (Nelson Mandela) than to ignore differences and difficulties. No matter what we might think of Suharto (i.e. in my case not much), his funeral is an occasion when Australia should be represented to show respect for the nation of Indonesia.
147 Definitely – there are 3 in the series.